By Works

[Guojing]

That mean Paul also teach us to carry the cross like Jesus did

So even though you agree that "carrying the cross" was never mentioned by Paul as a condition for salvation, you still want to believe that is true, because of your doctrine that "Paul taught the same message as Jesus"?

 

[Jackson123]

Eph 2 says that we are regenerated (saved eternally) before we have the ability to believe. John 3:16 is talking about the world of those who are regenerated believers.

What do you mean by regenerate believer

 

[Jackson123]

So even though you agree that "carrying the cross" was never mentioned by Paul as a condition for salvation, you still want to believe that is true, because of your doctrine that "Paul taught the same message as Jesus"?

I believe Paul and Jesus preach the same gospel

 

[Guojing]

I believe Paul and Jesus preach the same gospel

So you believe that, according to Paul, he would also preach one is saved by works too, aka carrying the cross?

 

[Micaiah-imla]

So you believe that, according to Paul, he would also preach one is saved by works too, aka carrying the cross?

No.

But after your conversion, received without works, you then must walk worthy of this vocation; carrying your cross is a picture of that vocation.

Walk worthy of Christ; otherwise you will be cut off with the unbelievers.

 

[Guojing]

No.

But after your conversion, received without works, you then must walk worthy of this vocation; carrying your cross is a picture of that vocation.

Walk worthy of Christ; otherwise you will be cut off with the unbelievers.

So I need to maintain my salvation by carrying the cross, otherwise, it will be lost?

 

[mailmandan]

No.

But after your conversion, received without works, you then must walk worthy of this vocation; carrying your cross is a picture of that vocation.

Walk worthy of Christ; otherwise you will be cut off with the unbelievers.

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you walked worthy "enough" of Christ? How many works does that take? Where is the dividing line between cut off and not cut off?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you walked worthy "enough" of Christ? How many works does that take? Where is the dividing line between cut off and not cut off?

In ourselves we can't determine the amount of works. If God is not in our works we are trying to earn salvation and it is impossible to do.

Remember the parable of the talents. Everyone were kept at a different standard and God will determine that my dear friend. We must just keep on fighting the good fight.

Keep safe and be blessed

 

[Guojing]

In ourselves we can't determine the amount of works. If God is not in our works we are trying to earn salvation and it is impossible to do.

Remember the parable of the talents. Everyone were kept at a different standard and God will determine that my dear friend. We must just keep on fighting the good fight.

Keep safe and be blessed

So in that sense, you are thinking like James, Peter and John when they were writing their letters to the Jews in the NT.

The Jews were never assured of their salvation, while they are still living. Only in the future, when Jesus return, then they will know for sure whether they have done enough. (1 Peter 1:3-9)

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

So in that sense, you are thinking like James, Peter and John when they were writing their letters to the Jews in the NT.

The Jews were never assured of their salvation, while they are still living. Only in the future, when Jesus return, then they will know for sure whether they have done enough. (1 Peter 1:3-9)

I wonder what Moses, Elijah, Joseph, David and Israel would tell you about your statement... or are you only referring to the tribes of Judah and Benjamin?

I think Moses would knock you out

 

[Jackson123]

So you believe that, according to Paul, he would also preach one is saved by works too, aka carrying the cross?

Paul preach salvation by faith, so does Jesus. And faith mean obey Jesus, and obey Jesus mean cayyy the cross.
Salvation by work can mean to clean our sin by animal sacrifice, pay some money for indulgence etc that's is wrong
Salvation by faith, mean by having faith in Jesus, obey and love Him
If you love Him you must love other, because Bible say if a man say he love God but hate his brother, he is a liar and if you love other, you do help other, not consider work, but you not fell it as a work, as an obidience.
If you love your family and you help them to find a job, you will not consider your action as a work. In grammar stand point it consider a work, but in every day life point of view it not.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

So I need to maintain my salvation by carrying the cross, otherwise, it will be lost?

That’s what the scripture plainly says.

Romans 11:22-23 KJV
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Colossians 1:23 KJV
[23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature

 

[Micaiah-imla]

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you walked worthy "enough" of Christ? How many works does that take?

If you bring forth fruit, he will purge you that you may bring forth more fruit. And this will continue as long as the believer continues to increase more in more in works pleasing to God.

If you cease bringing forth good fruit, you will be cut off.

See John 15:1-7

 

[Guojing]

I wonder what Moses, Elijah, Joseph, David and Israel would tell you about your statement... or are you only referring to the tribes of Judah and Benjamin?

I think Moses would knock you out

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

 

[Guojing]

That’s what the scripture plainly says.

Romans 11:22-23 KJV
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Colossians 1:23 KJV
[23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature

So you share the same view as Gandalf, you are thinking like what James Peter and John were saying in their letters to the Jews

 

[Micaiah-imla]

So you share the same view as Gandalf, you are thinking like what James Peter and John were saying in their letters to the Jews

You’re not paying attention.

I quoted two letters where Paul stated that a believer is secure as long as he continues in the faith.

This “to the Jews” narrative is annoying.

God’s word is written to all mankind to be instructed in holiness and wisdom in salvation (2 Timothy 3:15).

 

[tantalon]

I think some of the confusion regarding faith, and or works, comes from the new translations wherein it tells us we are "being saved" which may imply to some that salvation is not complete at conversion. Romans 8:8,9. tells us that SALVATION, or conversion, has been completed by the indwelling of the Spirit within a person. The good works afterward should prove what has already taken place AFTER that conversion. Any wrong doing of a born again believer is still subject to repentance and restoration, but salvation remains throughout.

 

[Magenta]

What do you mean by regenerate believer

Another word for regeneration is rebirth, related to the biblical phrase “born again.” The new birth is a spiritual, holy, and heavenly birth that results in our being made alive spiritually. Man in his natural state is “dead in trespasses and sins” until he is “made alive” (regenerated) by Christ. This happens when he places his faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:1). See more here

 

[mailmandan]

If you bring forth fruit, he will purge you that you may bring forth more fruit. And this will continue as long as the believer continues to increase more in more in works pleasing to God.

If you cease bringing forth good fruit, you will be cut off.

See John 15:1-7

Increase more and more in works could include any number of good works, which still begs the question.

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that initially bear fruit, but later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out in his commentary on John 15 that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

 

[Chester]

So I need to maintain my salvation by carrying the cross, otherwise, it will be lost?

You are really good at working hard to try to corner people into either a salvation or sanctification by works. Why don't you just right out ask them: "Do you believe a person is saved by works?" (and then take them at their own words for what they believe)