General Welfare Clause

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,785
4,453
113
#1
You often see Congress debating different spending bills, welfare programs, and federal projects. You hear the general welfare of the nation. But how was the general welfare clause explained by our founders and what examples do we have?

Click the link to read further.

ARTICLE I, SECTION 8, CLAUSE 1
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States....

https://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/1/essays/34/spending-clause
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,180
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#2
Roughsoul just wondering if you are a lawyer or something.

Not that I dont find your posts interesting but they are kinda legalistic. Are Christians supposed to be conversant with every single law in every country?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,785
4,453
113
#3
Roughsoul just wondering if you are a lawyer or something.

Not that I dont find your posts interesting but they are kinda legalistic. Are Christians supposed to be conversant with every single law in every country?
Not a lawyer but have studied criminal justice for 3 years and I enjoy studying human law as it relates to Biblical guidance. Bible has a lot of advice on good vs bad law.

Legalistic is salvation through works. My posts have nothing to do with that. But typically to inform and educate others. Laws should be important to Christians as the Bible is our foundation for all things in life. We literally legislate morality so it is important to know which morality, God, or man. Bad law can harm innocent people. Good law can make the innocent prosper.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,868
13,467
113
#4
Roughsoul, this is somewhat off topic, but you might be interested in this YouTube channel. The preacher often addresses American political issues from a foundational perspective. I don't relate to that part, not being American, but he seems to have his stuff together.

https://www.youtube.com/user/LibertyFellowshipMT
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,180
113
#5
mmm ok but its different depending on where you live, with bylaws and different countries etc. Even schools have different rules. But they dont legislate the morality, they teach it rather than legislate it. Legislation can only regulate behaviour it cant teach it.

a lot of lawyers act hypocritically, as do police thinking they are above the law. and polticians who change the laws.

what Jesus did was write laws on peoples HEARTS. not something legislation can do.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,180
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#6
one law that I found kinda interesting looking in american history was when the white govt took over the land and forced the indians as they called the native americans off the land into reservations. They then said to the white people go claim this land its yours. People went crazy and started claiming land in their droves but they had to make it pay to own it. well they couldnt it all turned into a big dustbowl after a couple of years.

what happened to the native americans? They had looked after that land for centuries but only after a couple of years of claiming via the govt laws it was turned to dust. Literally. This happened in the midwest.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,180
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#7
Homestead act of 1862
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,180
113
#8
apparently it didnt exclude black farmers from owning their own land but systemic discrimination put barriers to them.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,785
4,453
113
#9

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,785
4,453
113
#10
mmm ok but its different depending on where you live, with bylaws and different countries etc. Even schools have different rules. But they dont legislate the morality, they teach it rather than legislate it. Legislation can only regulate behaviour it cant teach it.

a lot of lawyers act hypocritically, as do police thinking they are above the law. and polticians who change the laws.

what Jesus did was write laws on peoples HEARTS. not something legislation can do.
The point is when writing laws, you are appealing to morality to dictate right vs wrong. If your source is God the creator of natural law then you will have a firm foundation in creating law. If you do not and start with this is what I want or I feel should be law then you will have a problem.

For instance in America you can still find the ten commandments in many court rooms. They once was in all court rooms. American law can be traced back to those core principles in the ten commandments.

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion" - John Adams, Nov. 4, 1816, letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The fundamental basis of this nation's laws was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days." - Harry S Truman, Feb. 15, 1950, Attorney General's Conference.

Moral or Written law (Bible) given by God tells us right from wrong. Legislation should confirm that. Judiciary should penalize any wrongdoing. And religion should be upheld as you are right it is the Holy Spirit that changes the heart.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,785
4,453
113
#11
one law that I found kinda interesting looking in american history was when the white govt took over the land and forced the indians as they called the native americans off the land into reservations. They then said to the white people go claim this land its yours. People went crazy and started claiming land in their droves but they had to make it pay to own it. well they couldnt it all turned into a big dustbowl after a couple of years.

what happened to the native americans? They had looked after that land for centuries but only after a couple of years of claiming via the govt laws it was turned to dust. Literally. This happened in the midwest.
Which govt or time period? Native Americans had contact with different countries leading up to the US. Are you talking about the beginning or later with the forced migration events like the Trail of Tears?

What happens to the Native Americans? That is a rich and very in-depth subject. From the beginning of European interaction, you had good and bad interactions. Then a plague killed off a largely unknown number of Native Americans (unintentional) these natives we're pagan in culture and many tribes were rich in human sacrifices, war, enslaving others, raping other tribeswomen, and stealing land from other tribes. This kind of culture is what helped the Pilgrims have the longest peace treaty with an Indian tribe. The Indians needed defense from the hostile tribes.

But over time the pilgrims converted many to Christianity and King Philip the late Indian Chief's son did not like the shifting culture and began a war against the Christian Indians and white settlers.

Europeans bought land from the Indians but later generations of Indians became more hostile as assimilation between the two cultures just kept clashing.

Many not all Native Americans sided with the French in the French and Indian war.

The British American colonies and 3 or 4 friendly Indian tribes won the war while 7 of 8 who sided with the French lost. So this created more conflict.

Then the American revolution had many Indian tribes side with the British who promised them land and wealth. They paid them for scalp bounties on American patriots.

Well, they lost that war too.

Many different colonists tried to evangelize Native Americans. And many found Jesus including the popular female Pocahontas.

Even Thomas Jefferson created a Bible that in the introduction it states his effort to reach the Native Americans. (Many today criticize his effort as saying he cut up the Bible. Out of context, it would appear so but he was trying to simplify the Bible so the evangelist would have a gateway to teaching the gospel. )

The Northwest Ordinance 1787 had these words within it.

Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property, rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them.

Many treaties were made between the Indian tribes and many were broken by different actions and events.

Then came the war of 1812. Same story. Many Indian tribes sided with the British. They lost again.

The results were bad as Spain loses West Florida to the United States; indigenous nations are mostly displaced from their land. Three tribes fought with the US while 17 tribes, the UK, Spain, and Canada fought against the US.


Then came the Seminole wars around Florida that really shook up American colonists.

Each of these events did in fact make the Indian look like the savage to many Americans. Of course, many tribes had already assimilated but tribes like the Seminole went to war.

General Andrew Jackson fought in the Seminole wars and many scholars believe that is what influenced him to pass the Indian Removal Act of 1830. President Andrew Jackson and the 8th President Martin Van Buren both linked to the creation of the Democratic Party, began the relocation of 5 different Indian tribes including the Cherokee's African slaves.

Davy Crockett an American legend and US congressman was very upset with this decision.

David Crockett to Charles Schultz, December 25, 1834 (Gilder Lehrman Collection)In this letter, written in December 1834, Davy Crockett complains about President Andrew Jackson’s forced removal of the Cherokees from their homes to Oklahoma. Crockett opposed that policy and feared Vice President Martin Van Buren would continue it, if elected president. He even goes so far as to say that if Van Buren is elected, Crockett would leave the United States for the "wildes of Texas." Crockett writes, "I will consider that government a Paridice to what this will be. In fact at this time our Republican Government has dwindled almost into insignificancy our [boasted] land of liberty have almost Bowed to the yoke of of [sic] Bondage." Crockett actually went to Texas before Martin Van Buren was elected president, and he died in the Battle of the Alamo on March 6, 1836, months before the election.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
2,067
1,324
113
#13
The laws that are written and how they are enforced is almost a mockery of scripture.

I've sort of laid out the "oasis" concept in that one other thread where you posted about communism (I think) and I certainly think freedoms should be safeguarded and fought for, however, it appears to be a downward slope and hard times are ahead. It may be the Lord's timing, or it may not be. Darkness may be increasing and I've said already somewhere that I think mitigating that is all that can be done. Certainly it is helpful to keep an open dialogue with those who are reasonable though...perhaps we have quite a long time and a revival could occur, I'm definitely open to that, but the laws are being laid with a different foundation now and that says a few things.

As to the Native Americans, if you could pin it down to paganism as far as their misfortunes it might make sense, but that answer hasn't ever satisfied me. There has to be more to it.

what Jesus did was write laws on peoples HEARTS. not something legislation can do.
Well they certainly try.

Also, you make a good point about laws being different places. It's crazy, it was somewhere about 600 laws in "the law" of the Word but in the U.S we have many thousands of laws. Add to that ordinances, policies, fining and arbitrary interpretations of laws as well as new ones being written all the time and it's absurd.

I go to AUS or the UK now I have a similar but entirely new set to apprise myself of. It's so "inhibiting" in a bureaucratic nonsense kind of way. Definitely a good bit of laws and instruction (teaching) is helpful to a community but I'd like to see more grace for minor offenses (like breaking noise laws or something). We can't all be a walking law book. Even if we knew every law, the interpretation (Judge, LEO, Lawyer, Jury) is yet another quagmire.
 

AndyMaleh

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2020
863
532
93
43
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
#14
The laws that are written and how they are enforced is almost a mockery of scripture.

I've sort of laid out the "oasis" concept in that one other thread where you posted about communism (I think) and I certainly think freedoms should be safeguarded and fought for, however, it appears to be a downward slope and hard times are ahead. It may be the Lord's timing, or it may not be. Darkness may be increasing and I've said already somewhere that I think mitigating that is all that can be done. Certainly it is helpful to keep an open dialogue with those who are reasonable though...perhaps we have quite a long time and a revival could occur, I'm definitely open to that, but the laws are being laid with a different foundation now and that says a few things.

As to the Native Americans, if you could pin it down to paganism as far as their misfortunes it might make sense, but that answer hasn't ever satisfied me. There has to be more to it.



Well they certainly try.

Also, you make a good point about laws being different places. It's crazy, it was somewhere about 600 laws in "the law" of the Word but in the U.S we have many thousands of laws. Add to that ordinances, policies, fining and arbitrary interpretations of laws as well as new ones being written all the time and it's absurd.

I go to AUS or the UK now I have a similar but entirely new set to apprise myself of. It's so "inhibiting" in a bureaucratic nonsense kind of way. Definitely a good bit of laws and instruction (teaching) is helpful to a community but I'd like to see more grace for minor offenses (like breaking noise laws or something). We can't all be a walking law book. Even if we knew every law, the interpretation (Judge, LEO, Lawyer, Jury) is yet another quagmire.
Speaking of law enforcement, it is time to correct and enforce laws to be against adultery, homosexuality, and sexually suggestive media & advertising. This will prevent 99.999999999% of rape cases out there whether heterosexual or homosexual.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
2,067
1,324
113
#15
Certainly advertising and perpetrating hyper sexuality (and the profit therein) should be exposed and denounced. Legally many, believers or not, would support constricting this or eradicating it.

I have quite a bit more that I'd like to say, but perhaps it's not the appropriate time.