Chosen by God - A study in Election

Nehemiah6 · Aug 29, 2020

cv5 said:

Correction. Even the Calvinistic Geneva Bible has "whosoever", as do all other bibles. So any pretense at changing that meaning is folly and opposition to the truth. Whosoever means "anyone and everyone" regardless.

GENEVA BIBLE
For God so loved the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
King James 2000 Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
American King James Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
American Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
Darby Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
English Revised Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Webster's Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
World English Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

cv5 · Aug 29, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Correction. Even the Calvinistic Geneva Bible has "whosoever", as do all other bibles. So any pretense at changing that meaning is folly and opposition to the truth. Whosoever means "anyone and everyone" regardless.

GENEVA BIBLE
For God so loved the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
King James 2000 Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
American King James Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
American Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
Darby Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
English Revised Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Webster's Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
World English Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Nice try but nope, the Greek is crystal-clear. The term definitely is NOT whoever or whosoever ("hos" in the Greek).

Go ahead and read it for yourself....."so that everyone believing in Him"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-16.htm

14meatcc · Aug 29, 2020

cv5 said:

Someone had to be predestined to betray Jesus, therefore repenting was not an option.

John146 · Aug 29, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Correction. Even the Calvinistic Geneva Bible has "whosoever", as do all other bibles. So any pretense at changing that meaning is folly and opposition to the truth. Whosoever means "anyone and everyone" regardless.

GENEVA BIBLE
For God so loved the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
King James 2000 Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
American King James Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
American Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
Darby Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
English Revised Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Webster's Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
World English Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

But it does not fit my theology so I’m going to change it.

EleventhHour · Aug 29, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Correction. Even the Calvinistic Geneva Bible has "whosoever", as do all other bibles. So any pretense at changing that meaning is folly and opposition to the truth. Whosoever means "anyone and everyone" regardless.

GENEVA BIBLE
For God so loved the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
King James 2000 Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
American King James Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
American Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
Darby Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
English Revised Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Webster's Bible Translation
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
World English Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

In Calvinism ...

Same words different meanings.
Different meanings same words.
On occasion same words same meaning... whatever fits the narrative.

cv5 · Aug 29, 2020

EleventhHour said:

I'm rubber and you're glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks on you.

I'm joking of course. Please see my post # 542.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-16.htm

I trust everyone here will undoubtedly agree that the term "whosoever" is definitely NOT used in John 3:16.

EleventhHour · Aug 29, 2020

cv5 said:

In context of the chapter since we are speaking of "a man" or "any man"

The participle/verb is singular ...... πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων

"Whosoever" is the same as "all who believe" or "everyone who believes." which is in keeping with the context... it is not a special class of people. It is open to any man.. whosoever fits.

John146 · Aug 29, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Rats! You got me. Ok, then it’s “For God so loved the world of the elect...”

cv5 · Aug 29, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Sorry but I disagree. The definite article ὁ in conjunction with the adjective πᾶς would emphasize a peculiar select group of individuals. Not a random group i.e. anybody and everybody.

But beyond these vicissitudes, remain the unassailable axiomatic truths:

-that Christ FIRST chooses us, we NEVER first choose Him....EVER
-that God the Father ALONE reveals Jesus to whomsoever He wills
-that's being born again is a creative work of God, in which we have no part or participation
-and as Paul clearly indicates, all of this occurs in eternity past, before we were ever born, foreordained before the founding of the world by sovereign choice and grace alone.

EleventhHour · Aug 29, 2020

cv5 said:

Sorry but I disagree. The definite article ὁ in conjunction with the adjective πᾶς would emphasize a peculiar select group of individuals. Not a random group i.e. anybody and everybody.

But beyond these vicissitudes, remain the unassailable axiomatic truths:

-that Christ FIRST chooses us, we NEVER first choose Him....EVER
-that God the Father ALONE reveals Jesus to whomsoever He wills
-that's being born again is a creative work of God, in which we have no part or participation
-and as Paul clearly indicates, all of this occurs in eternity past, before we were ever born, foreordained before the founding of the world by sovereign choice and grace alone.

Someone I have always wanted to ask somebody who believes this.. have you ever shared the Gospel to a non-believer?

cv5 · Aug 29, 2020

John146 said:

Yeah. Basically.......yes that's true. Allow me to demonstrate.

Matt 24:22
But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

Let Jesus explain to you the selectivity of his prayers, these prayers of course being infallibly answered by God his Father, and thereby being wholly effective.

Which strict category of individuals is Jesus praying for? Every random person in the world? Or an exclusive group?

John 17:9
I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

To which exclusive group is Jesus providing eternal life?

John 17:2
As You gave Him authority over all flesh, so that all whom You have given Him, He may give to them eternal life.

cv5 · Aug 29, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Constantly nonstop whenever I have the opportunity. I do not however cast God's pearls before swine.....this is a matter of judgment.

You may be interested to know that typically I will start with the Exodus and the judgments upon Egypt to begin preaching. Why pray tell? Because the account of the Exodus clearly delineates the True and Living God for all the world see. And consequently denounces the plethora of the false gods we are plagued with in this world today. This of course was God's original purpose to begin with, I am simply following suit. One must first establish exactly Who the True God really is.

I also emphasize prophecy as regards Israel, and their recent (and timely if you happen to know prophecy as well as I do) return to the newly founded nation. Israel, being God's timepiece, I use as a warning to everyone that the end of the age is indeed near.

Iconoclast · Aug 31, 2020

cv5 said:

Yes, just like this;
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Iconoclast · Aug 31, 2020

cv5 said:

Yes, exactly correct;
Jesus is the true exodus, the true Covenant Son

Yes, Jesus is the New Exodus
The true covenant Son, The true Israel

ex4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

mt4:
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hos11

Lk9:
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
3131 who having appeared in glory, spake of his outgoing that he was about to fulfil in Jerusalem,

31 Who appeared in kavod and were speaking of Moshiach’s Litziat Exodus, which he was about to fulfill in Yerushalayim.

were speaking of His departure
his autos departure exodos

The True tabernacle, The true Manna, The True Passover...Heb8, Jn6, 1cor5

Iconoclast · Aug 31, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

A friend of mine has recently posted on this;

Your grammatical aspirations do not work in Greek.

There is no good reason for weakening the predestinarian note here, as (e.g.) H. Alford does by rendering “as many as were disposed to eternal life.” The Greek participle is τεταγμένος from τάσσω, and there is papyrus evidence for the use of this verb in the sense of “inscribe” or “enroll” (cf. ὁρισμὸν ἔταξας, “thou hast signed a decree,” in Theodotion’s version of Dan. 6:12). The idea of being enrolled in the book of life or the like is found in several biblical contexts (e.g., Ex. 32:32–33; Ps. 69 [LXX 68]:28; Isa. 4:3; Dan. 12:1; Luke 10:20; Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:12–15; 21:27), in the pseudepigrapha (e.g., Jub. 30:20; 1 Enoch 47:3; 104:1; 108:3), and in rabbinical literature (e.g., TJ Rosh ha-Shanah 1.9.57a; TB Rosh ha-Shanah 16b). The Targum of Jonathan on Isa. 4:3 (“written among the living”) explains this as being “written for the life of the age to come” (i.e., eternal life).

F. F. Bruce, The Book of the Acts, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1988).
What is more, the grammar cannot be construed to suggest that the gentiles enrolled themselves.

They were those who were “appointed for eternal life.” In this phrase we encounter the same balance between human volition and divine providence that is found throughout Acts. On their part these Gentiles took an active role in believing, in committing themselves to Christ; but it was in response to God’s Spirit moving in them, convicting them, appointing them for life. All salvation is ultimately only by the grace of God.

John B. Polhill, Acts, vol. 26, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers,

Iconoclast · Aug 31, 2020

Believed (ἐπιστευσαν [episteusan]). Summary or constative first aorist active indicative of πιστευω [pisteuō]. The subject of this verb is the relative clause. By no manner of legerdemain can it be made to mean “those who believe were appointed.” It was saving faith that was exercised only by those who were appointed unto eternal life, who were ranged on the side of eternal life, who were thus revealed as the subjects of God’s grace by the stand that they took on this day for the Lord. It was a great day for the kingdom of God. (emphasis mine)

Iconoclast · Aug 31, 2020

Believed (ἐπιστευσαν [episteusan]). Summary or constative first aorist active indicative of πιστευω [pisteuō]. The subject of this verb is the relative clause. By no manner of legerdemain can it be made to mean “those who believe were appointed.” It was saving faith that was exercised only by those who were appointed unto eternal life, who were ranged on the side of eternal life, who were thus revealed as the subjects of God’s grace by the stand that they took on this day for the Lord. It was a great day for the kingdom of God. (emphasis mine). Robertson clearly states "By no manner... can it be made to mean "Those who believe were appointed"." This is to say the belief cannot be the basis of the appointment.Saving faith, according to Robertson, was exercised by those who were [past tense,] appointed

cv5 · Aug 31, 2020

Iconoclast said:

Believed (ἐπιστευσαν [episteusan]). Summary or constative first aorist active indicative of πιστευω [pisteuō]. The subject of this verb is the relative clause. By no manner of legerdemain can it be made to mean “those who believe were appointed.” It was saving faith that was exercised only by those who were appointed unto eternal life, who were ranged on the side of eternal life, who were thus revealed as the subjects of God’s grace by the stand that they took on this day for the Lord. It was a great day for the kingdom of God. (emphasis mine). Robertson clearly states "By no manner... can it be made to mean "Those who believe were appointed"." This is to say the belief cannot be the basis of the appointment.Saving faith, according to Robertson, was exercised by those who were [past tense,] appointed

Looks like we're winning.
This is been a great thread so far thank you everyone for your valuable inputs.

cv5 · Sep 1, 2020

foreknowledge = previous determination.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/1-2.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/2-23.htm

In the Bible, If and when God the Father and the Lord Jesus speak of "knowing" (or not knowing) us, this "knowing" is NOT in the sense of observation, rather this knowing is in the sense of a predetermined relationship from eternity past, which was part of God the Father's plan from before the foundation of the world.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4268.htm

In Matt 7:23, Jesus is not saying that he did not know this group of people by observation (Jesus knows all things and sees all things). No, The clear intent of the statement is that Jesus does not have a predetermined eternal relationship with this group of people, that they are not those who were given Him by God the Father.

Iconoclast · Sep 1, 2020

cv5 said:

The truth of God always triumphs in every place 2 cor2:14-17

Chosen by God - A study in Election

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