The Post Tribulation Rapture

Interesting thoughts. I'll have a look at it. I've always thought Christ / Messiah returns to end the great tribulation. Why else would it just end by itself?

When the chronological order was broken, it was indicated with clear and concise words of: but before these events.

Could the current USA administration's Abrahamic covenant ( Israel/Arab Abraham Agreement ) with many (prepared from 666 on 5th) be the start of Daniel 9:27's seven weeks, usher in sacrifices in a man brought temple in the NEW EMBASSY CAPITAL OF JERUSALEM, only to be broken once again, after 3.5 years, when it was about power to the man brought (cushy members of non-believing Chabad.org) anti-Christ / anti-Messiah, when this man brought covenant is broken after 3.5 years, and the MAN enters the man brought temple in Jerusalem, to be worshipped by ALL as only god of men wordwide, including the USA and the Jews in Jerusalem - when the GREAT TRIBULATION GETS USHERED IN and the saved Jews finally realise their original mistake for rejecting the TRUE MESSIAH, JESUS CHRIST / YESHUA HA'MASHIACH:

Zechariah 12 (ESV)

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Romans 11 (ESV)

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."


As Ishmael was brought about by Sarah's not-God-inspired man-made DIY-'fulfilment' attempt (at her near 100 years old age in poor faith thinking impossibility of God's fulfilment of God's promises) to God's (laughed-off by Sarah) promise of Isaac to Abraham being the promised-son fulfilment of God's covenant people, could the anti-Christ / anti-Messiah be the man-made DIY-'fulfilment' attempt of God's promise to fulfilment of the return of his Messiah / Christ - and that will be man's ushering in of the GREAT TRIBULATION under the man-made anti-Messiah / anti-Christ:
Daniel 9 (ESV)


27 And he ( the anti-Christ / anti-Messiah before the great tribulation lasting 3.5 years / roughly a USA presidential term ) shall make a strong covenant (Abraham Agreement / Abraham covenant with arabs ? to be broken 3.5 years later, when he requires himself to the worshipped only) with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Daniel 12 (ESV)

1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days (roughly 3.5 years that the great tribulation will last, during which all who takes his chabad.org Kaballah 666 Solomonic idol worship mark, will have to worship the anti-Christ / anti-Messiah ).

It is your duty to first show that Jesus is Israel's Bridegroom. Jehovah was her Husband! Jesus is her KING. But don't forget that at our Lord Jesus' trial before Pilate, Israel emphatically said they wanted Caesar as their king , and, "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children" (Matthew 27:25).

I am amzed that you can think that the company of Revelation 7 is the same company of Revelation 14. The differences are enormous:

1. Those of 7 are Israelites - those of 14 are "from among men"
2. Those of 7 are on earth (Rev.9:4) - those of 14 are in heaven
3. Those of 7 have a "Seal" in their foreheads - those of 14 have the Father's Name in their foreheads
4. You can only have God as your Father if you were born of Him by faith in Jesus (Jn.1:12-13). Israel are concluded in UNBELIEF
5. Those of 7 have no throne for David's House is not yet restored - those of 14 have Christ's throne in heaven
6. Those of 7 are on the earth - those of 14 are "redeemed from the earth"
7. Israel played the whore - those of 14 are not defiled with women
8. Israel fornicated with idols - those of 14 are Virgins
9. Israel mourn when they see Jesus - those of 14 sing a song
10. Israel hated and rejected Jesus - Those of 14 "follow the Lamb wherever He goes"
11. Israel blasphemed Jesus - those of 14 have no guile in their mouths
12. Israel rejected, blasphemed and murdered Christ - those of 14 are "without fault"

We certainly don't have the same appreciation of language, proofs and evidence.

Exactly. But, at the moment, I am only trying to make the point that the strict-chronological-order-verse-by-verse idea is faulty. Because, in reality, the "record of detail" about some things in scripture does "jump around" a bit. What you read in the Bible is not always in strict-chronological-order-verse-by-verse order.

At this point right here, you are drifting into error.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

No. A Jew cannot be a part of the Body of Christ. It has "neither Jew nor Greek" - but is a New Man (Eph.2:15). If you are an Israelite then Israel (Jacob) is your father. If you are IN Christ then God is your Father.

Your Media title is wrong. If an Israelite became a Believer, it is "one for the Church". The Church is made "(OUT) OF the TWAIN" "TWAIN" means TWO. Which TWO? (i) The Nations and (ii) The nation of Israel.

1. Gentiles are made HEIRS to the Covenant of Promise - not Israel - BY ADOPTION (Rom.8:15, Eph.1:5, etc.)
2. Gentiles are made "seed of Abraham" by being IN Christ - not by fleshly birth (Gal.3:29)
3. Israel comes from the "First man". The Church comes from the "Second Man" (1st Cor.15:47)
4. Gentiles are made partakers - not of Israel - but of its "Commonwealth". A "Commonwealth" is not ethnicity. It is how a Central Government applies the privileges of its country to others. A New Zealander does not become British, but enjoys the privileges of Great Britain by "Commonwealth".

'just end by itself'?

I wouldn't suggest that.

The Two Witnesses do have a part in it...

Renewed Israel under the new covenant of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah is not guilty of the sins of Israel of the old covenant. Renewed Israel's sins have been forgiven under the new covenant, and the Judah's lamb Davidic Kingship of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah:


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh ( Ephraim among the Gentiles ), called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision ( Judah among the Jews ), which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ ( Messiah ), alienated from the commonwealth of Israel ( at the time Judah's Jews ) and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off ( Ephraim among the Gentiles ) have been brought near by the blood of Christ ( new covenant of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah ).

Would you agree with, instead of saying: Renewed Israel Body of Christ, to say Renewed Israel part of the Body of Christ?

I'm a South African part of the Body of Christ.

So after the 3.5 years great tribulation is ended by the two witnesses, what happens to the elect during the remaining 3.5 years of the two witnesses' mission, before the return of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach?

Your beliefs are taken by you as established. But it is not so. They are the very points of contention. Therefore, you may not add them to God's texts. Give me the text ALONE. Then show context, grammar and correct words in their rightful order to build a theory. Ephraim is NOT "Gentiles according to the flesh". Ephraim is Israelitish according to the flesh! They are "sons of Jacob". The folly of your theory is shown in that you make Ephraim to be "Gentiles in the flesh", but the next sentence says that they were cut off from Israel. How can Ephraim be at once seed of Jacob but cut off from Israel?

Rather, the text says that the Gentiles where cut off from Israel's privileges, but are made NEAR - not to Israel - but its Commonwealth .... "Common - wealth" - the Covenant of Promise of inheriting the earth made to Abraham (Rom.4:13). If the Church was made part of Israel it would be subject to the Covenant of Law. But it is not. It is made partaker of the Covenant of PROMISE made 430 years earlier with Abraham.

By the end of the 'tribulation', the vast majority of Christians will have been killed for not worshipping the Beast.

Since the terms do not appear in scripture, I would not advise you to use them - although I know what you mean. I would word it like this. But first I would like to point out that Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 leave no doubt that your fleshly origin is gone. You are a South African by virtue of the world's administration - Caesar's domain - if you like. In God's eyes you are a citizen of heaven. This brings us to the Olive Tree.

2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation of scripture. So we must explain scripture by scripture. So, what then is a Tree in Parable? In Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31 a Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom. So the Olive Tree shows Christ and His Kingdom - but not yet completed because some branches are cut off at the moment. Israel are natural branches, temorarily cut off and believers from all nations are wild branches grafted in. It is incomplete. But when will it be complete? When Christ returns to earth. In Acts 15:14-16 it is "AFTER THIS ... I WILL RETURN". And just as most of the prophets predict, Israel will be fully restored. What will we have when Christ returns?

We will have every Israelite who ever lived resurrected and retunred to his Land to be ruled by the Twelve Apostles, who in turn are under David (Jer.30:9), who is in turn under Jesus Messiah. Israel will again be the leading nation among THE Nations, and be host to Emanuel - Christ living in Jerusalem. The rest of the world will be ruled by Overcoming Christians (Lk.19:17-19; Rev.2:27). Christ will be King of the Jews, and Christ will be King of kings. He will rule Israel by the New Covenant of Law (Jer.31:31-33) and He will rule the Nations with the "Rod of Iron" (Rev.19:15). This Christ's KINGDOM on earth. This is the Olive Tree.

The Body of Christ is something else. It is depicted by EVE. For men to be up to the standard of Christ, to be His Bride, having one's origin in the womb is not enough. Like EVE, the Church must come out of Christ. This is done on the cross as Jesus is already asleep and His side is opened. When He wakes He it is done. "Jesus saith unto her, .... go to MY brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and YOUR Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17)

To be "brethren (or brothers)" with Christ you must have the same Father. This is confirmed by "YOUR Father". A New Entity had been BORN by God. So just as Adam says of Eve, "this is flesh OF my flesh and bone OF my bones", so is the Church constructed OUT OF CHRIST (Eph.5:30). Why is the BLOOD missing??? Because the "life" is in the blood and we are Christ's Bride by divine and eternal life and not HUMAN LIFE! Israel is Israel because they have Jacob's life. The Church is the body of Christ because it has Christ's divine life (2nd Pet 1:4). And which Tree depicts Christ's LIFE? - The True Vine! In John 15 it is not a matter of getting what Israel was Promised (the Covenant of Promise), but a pure matter of the Stem giving it's Life-Juices to the branches for fruit for the Father. The fruit of the Olive Tree HONORS God (because His Kingdom of RULE is established). The fruit of the Vine "cheereth God and man" (because Christ's divine life causes a certain behavior in a man)(Judges Chapter 9).

So my statement would be. Restored Israel is part of the KINGDOM of God WITH the Church. The Church is the unique Body of Christ. One is a matter of ADMINISTRATION of this earth, and the other is an ORGANIC UNION for Christ's PLEASURE.

It's 01:30 here, so I'm off to the sack. We'll talk again friend. God bless.

Where is Ephraim physically to this day? In the land of the nation of Israel? No, they are in the commonwealth of Israel, among the Gentiles, believing unto Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach, prevented to enter the land of their birth right, by their brother Judah (Jews), who is still partially hardened to unbelief, until the time of the Gentiles have come to fulfilment, ie. the gospel of the Kingdom has reached the ends of the earth. Ephraim are recognised by Judah, but Judah limit them to bring Judah to the belief of the King of Israel, ie. Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach, see KolHaTor

As the elect gets raptured, after the 3.5 years tribulation (and you say after another 3.5 years of witnessing by the two witnesses, you say the 3.5 years of witnessing does not coincide with the 3.5 years of the tribulation) - surely there will be elect Christians to be raptured?

It has to apply to a different historical timeframe, as that timeframe proposed, does not fit history, around the death and resurrection of Christ / Messiah the anointed one ( and he did not have nothing - he conquered death ):

If the anointed one, Christ / Messiah, was cut off at the end of the 62 year weeks ( after 434 years in 33AC). Then 7.5 year weeks are left, before the end to sacrifice, in the half of the last year week of the 70 year weeks. The end to sacrifice in Zerubbabel's / Herod's temple had to end in 85AC, which does not correspond to history, as Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed in 70AC.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

The immutable words of God said in the Contract, or Covenant of Law in Leviticus 26:32-39;

32 "And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them."

One does not need a degree in languages to understand these simple threats. And the PREMISE is that those who are scattered "among the heathen" will retain their identity. There will be, in "all nations under the sun" Israelies who (i) live in fear, (ii) who are faint-hearted, (iii) who shake at a leaf falling, (iv) who will perish among the heathen, (v) who will be eaten up by their enemies' land, and (vii) who will will have childen who will also pine away in enemy territory. That is, generations of Israelites will languish in "all nations under the sun" and never lose their identity. The enemies will know them from generation to generation and persecute them.

That is were Ephraim is today. An ethnic group who are scattered among all nations, who live in fear, who are persecuted and who are chastised for all their sins. They do not lose their ethnicity. That is, they remain Jews. They do not integrate with those nations, and they do not become Christians. When the Church is complete, Christ, Chiefest of Jews, will return (Act.15:14-16) and Ezekiel 37 will be fulfilled. They NEVER believe in Jesus. God has concluded them ALL in UNBELIEF (Rom.11:32). Ungodliness in Israel is only turned at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel - not now. Ungodliness among the Jews will only be turned when their Messiah RETURNS. Hosea 6:2 says that Israel's chastisement lasts two days. Only in the third day are they raised up as a nation again. Since Israel has been dispersed since 70 AD, the two days must mean 2 X 1,000 years (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet 3:8). The third day is the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus - or, the Messianic age.

1. Israel, or Judah, or both, NEVER embrace Jesus Christ UNTIL HE appears out of the clouds.
2. Israel, or Judah, or both, are not restored to their Land until our Lord Jesus kicks the Gentiles out of it at Armageddon
3. Israel, or Judah, or both, do not receive the New Covenant until they are resurrected and reunited in their Land
4. The New Covenant is one of Law (Jer.31:33)
5. The New Covenant is NOT written in Christ's blood. It is RATIFIED by Chris's blood
6. The New Covenant is WRITTEN inside the Israelite who is restored when Christ comes
7. Israel's last act in this age is to EMBRACE the Beast - a Gentile king. Their darkest hour is yet to come
8. Israel are the seed of Israel whose earlier name was Jacob
9. Israel rejected Jesus Christ and do reject Him to this day
10. Any Israelite who embraces Jesus Christ CEASES to be an Israelite. His ethnicity is GONE. He is a New Creature. His old LIFE, including his connection to Jacob, is GONE
11. "Messianic Jew" never appears in scripture. It is purely the invention of fallen men. Scripture speaks AGAINST such a concept

If Jacob is not your brother in the Kingdom of God, be worried of your salvation, as Jacob is in the Kingdom of God.

Luke 13 (ESV)

20 And again he said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened." 22 He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' 26 Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' 27 But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!' 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."


2 Peter 3 (ESV)

15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Aaaahhhh. All is revealed. I say, "SON of Jacob", and you answer, "BROTHER of Jacob" - a world of difference.

If you are a "son of Jacob" you are an Israelite with Jacob as your father. If you are a "brother of Jacob" you are a member of the New Man wih God as your Father. To be in the Kingdom - as you rightly allude to, you need a New Birth. But then the matter even eluded Nicodemus - a searcher of the truth and a man with a top education in God's Word.