PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

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T

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#321
BenjaminN said:
The only -ist I'll allow you to hang around my neck is Christ Yeshua's.
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But the damage caused by what you believe is not
BenjaminN said:
Yes every man's measure of faith (lack of faith, little faith, or faith that can move mountains), has been dealt to him by God.

The measure of faith God has dealt to someone, might also be on the low end of the scale at zero. If someone believes that their believes are their own, and not from God, none of it is faith dealt by God, and is therefor at the very bottom end of the measure of faith scale.


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
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From Romans 12 the chapter could you explain in context why Paul is telling them not to think highly of themselves ?
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#322
#322
BenjaminN said:
Yes every man's measure of faith (lack of faith, little faith, or faith that can move mountains), has been dealt to him by God.

The measure of faith God has dealt to someone, might also be on the low end of the scale at zero. If someone believes that their believes are their own, and not from God, none of it is faith dealt by God, and is therefor at the very bottom end of the measure of faith scale.


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Click to expand...
I don't think Romans 12:3 is saying that every man born has been given a measure of faith. I think in that context it is referring to every man that was among them as a local assembly of born again Christians learning how to operated in the gifts of the Spirit.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

This "measure of faith" being applied to how they operate in their individual gifts. This is the context and it should not be used to apply to the idea that every person born has been given a measure of faith to operate in a spiritual gift as the ones listed. It applies to born again Christian who have the HOLY SPIRIT in them. To each of these has been given a measure of faith according to their gift.

Also to confirm that this is the correct interpretation and not that every man even born has been given a measure of faith for salvation we have the following verse.
2 Thess 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
So not everyman has faith and we know that to be true. Can all men choose to have faith, I believe they can. But not all do. There is no mystical "measure of faith" that they carry about unused. It is not faith unless you believe.

As to those of us in the body of Christ who have these spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit after we are born again we have to have faith to operate in that gift and to each of us has been given the measure of faith according to our gift. If you have the gift to teach you have been given faith to teach and you know that and are biting at the bit to teach because you have faith to release that gift in you. But you also know not to attempt another gift that the Spirit is not stirring your faith to attempt. In other words your measure of faith helps you to "stay in your lane" and not think too highly of yourself and attempt gifts that you have not been called by the Spirit to do.
 
B

BenjaminN

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Oct 7, 2020
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#323
throughfaith said:
But the damage caused by what you believe is not
From Romans 12 the chapter could you explain in context why Paul is telling them not to think highly of themselves ?
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"But the damage caused by what you believe is not" - I believe that God is almighty, and that those that He saved, He had written their names in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain, before the foundation of the earth. This is long before some man had frivolous "believes of his own", which is "not the gift from God", that somehow "he believes" will save him.

The rest of Romans 12 the chapter explains the GIFTS given BY GOD to the Body of Believers, all GIVEN BY GOD in HIS MEASURE, as they may not think HIGHLY OF THEMSELVES, as it is GIFTS FROM GOD.

He also warns of the self, my believes are from me, not from God, as evil. Someone not crediting God for their faith:


Romans 12 (KJV)

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;


Romans 12 (ESV)

9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
 
B

BenjaminN

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#324
Oct 7, 2020
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#324
Scribe said:
I don't think Romans 12:3 is saying that every man born has been given a measure of faith. I think in that context it is referring to every man that was among them as a local assembly of born again Christians learning how to operated in the gifts of the Spirit.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

This "measure of faith" being applied to how they operate in their individual gifts. This is the context and it should not be used to apply to the idea that every person born has been given a measure of faith to operate in a spiritual gift as the ones listed. It applies to born again Christian who have the HOLY SPIRIT in them. To each of these has been given a measure of faith according to their gift.

Also to confirm that this is the correct interpretation and not that every man even born has been given a measure of faith for salvation we have the following verse.
2 Thess 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
So not everyman has faith and we know that to be true. Can all men choose to have faith, I believe they can. But not all do. There is no mystical "measure of faith" that they carry about unused. It is not faith unless you believe.

As to those of us in the body of Christ who have these spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit after we are born again we have to have faith to operate in that gift and to each of us has been given the measure of faith according to our gift. If you have the gift to teach you have been given faith to teach and you know that and are biting at the bit to teach because you have faith to release that gift in you. But you also know not to attempt another gift that the Spirit is not stirring your faith to attempt. In other words your measure of faith helps you to "stay in your lane" and not think too highly of yourself and attempt gifts that you have not been called by the Spirit to do.
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Revelation 13 (KJV)

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear: 10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
 
T

throughfaith

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#325
Aug 4, 2020
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#325
Scribe said:
I don't think Romans 12:3 is saying that every man born has been given a measure of faith. I think in that context it is referring to every man that was among them as a local assembly of born again Christians learning how to operated in the gifts of the Spirit.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

This "measure of faith" being applied to how they operate in their individual gifts. This is the context and it should not be used to apply to the idea that every person born has been given a measure of faith to operate in a spiritual gift as the ones listed. It applies to born again Christian who have the HOLY SPIRIT in them. To each of these has been given a measure of faith according to their gift.

Also to confirm that this is the correct interpretation and not that every man even born has been given a measure of faith for salvation we have the following verse.
2 Thess 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
So not everyman has faith and we know that to be true. Can all men choose to have faith, I believe they can. But not all do. There is no mystical "measure of faith" that they carry about unused. It is not faith unless you believe.

As to those of us in the body of Christ who have these spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit after we are born again we have to have faith to operate in that gift and to each of us has been given the measure of faith according to our gift. If you have the gift to teach you have been given faith to teach and you know that and are biting at the bit to teach because you have faith to release that gift in you. But you also know not to attempt another gift that the Spirit is not stirring your faith to attempt. In other words your measure of faith helps you to "stay in your lane" and not think too highly of yourself and attempt gifts that you have not been called by the Spirit to do.
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These are the two views . I've gone back and forth on this recently to be honest. Its clear that 2 thes 3.2 is talking about unbelievers.

In Romans 12 though its of course not talking about every man born into the world has has been given a measure of faith to operate in a spiritual gift . No that can only after receiving the Holy Spirit.
What is said is that Just like everyman has gifted life, food , air ect a measure of faith is given . As in the ability to use it . To place it in the right thing . Of course most people place there faith in the wrong thing .

So in context. They are not to be high minded in that the unsaved do have faith .( misplaced faith)

¶For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
There seems to be two groups .
1) every man that is among you
2)according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Its up for debate . Its not a hill I.ll want to die on ,but its certainly not referring to the idea that only the ' 'elect ' have been gifted faith
 
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BenjaminN

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throughfaith said:
These are the two views . I've gone back and forth on this recently to be honest. Its clear that 2 thes 3.2 is talking about unbelievers.

In Romans 12 though its of course not talking about every man born into the world has has been given a measure of faith to operate in a spiritual gift . No that can only after receiving the Holy Spirit.
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Hallelujah - there might be light at the end of this dark tunnel of denying God's gift.
 
S

Scribe

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#327
throughfaith said:
These are the two views . I've gone back and forth on this recently to be honest. Its clear that 2 thes 3.2 is talking about unbelievers.

In Romans 12 though its of course not talking about every man born into the world has has been given a measure of faith to operate in a spiritual gift . No that can only after receiving the Holy Spirit.
What is said is that Just like everyman has gifted life, food , air ect a measure of faith is given . As in the ability to use it . To place it in the right thing . Of course most people place there faith in the wrong thing .

So in context. They are not to be high minded in that the unsaved do have faith .( misplaced faith)

¶For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
There seems to be two groups .
1) every man that is among you
2)according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Its up for debate . Its not a hill I.ll want to die on ,but its certainly not referring to the idea that only the ' 'elect ' have been gifted faith
Click to expand...
"according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" has been taken out of it's parent sentence and applied outside of it's immediate context by so many teachers and preachers for so long that it is difficult for people to deprogram and take the step out of the bad hermeneutic. But keep trying, it will eventually become as plain as day that it has been misused.
 
T

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#328
BenjaminN said:
"But the damage caused by what you believe is not" - I believe that God is almighty, and that those that He saved, He had written their names in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain, before the foundation of the earth. This is long before some man had frivolous "believes of his own", which is "not the gift from God", that somehow "he believes" will save him.

The rest of Romans 12 the chapter explains the GIFTS given BY GOD to the Body of Believers, all GIVEN BY GOD in HIS MEASURE, as they may not think HIGHLY OF THEMSELVES, as it is GIFTS FROM GOD.

He also warns of the self, my believes are from me, not from God, as evil. Someone not crediting God for their faith:


Romans 12 (KJV)

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;


Romans 12 (ESV)

9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
Click to expand...
Paul switches continually from,' we 'to ' ' them '
2And be not conformed to THIS world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3¶For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is AMOUNG YOU , not to think of HIMSELF more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith.

4For as WE have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5So WE , being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to US , whether prophecy, let US prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7Or ministry, let US wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

9¶Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

10Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring ONE ANOTHER;

11Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

12Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

13Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

14¶Bless THEM which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15Rejoice with THEM that do rejoice, and weep with THEM that weep.

16Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17¶Recompense TO NO MAN evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of ALL MEN .

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably WITH ALL MEN .

19Dearly BELOVED.....
 
T

throughfaith

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#329
Scribe said:
"according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" has been taken out of it's parent sentence and applied outside of it's immediate context by so many teachers and preachers for so long that it is difficult for people to deprogram and take the step out of the bad hermeneutic. But keep trying, it will eventually become as plain as day that it has been misused.
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I think i may have made the error of copying your translation over .
KJV
.
3¶For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Can the ' accordingly ' be why they ought not to think of himself more highly. because God has dealt to everyman the measure of faith.?
 
T

throughfaith

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#330
throughfaith said:
I think i may have made the error of copying your translation over .
KJV
.
3¶For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Can the ' accordingly ' be why they ought not to think of himself more highly. because God has dealt to everyman the measure of faith.?
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We should prob throw in these verses also.
1 cor 12
4¶Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12¶For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
 
S

Scribe

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#332
throughfaith said:
We should prob throw in these verses also.
1 cor 12
4¶Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12¶For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
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Yes. Same author, same subject matter. This is good hermeneutics.

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will (every man in the world? No. Every man in the Spirit filled church)

" 2...according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. " (every man in the world? No. Every man among you,(vs 3), the Spirit filled church)
 
S

Scribe

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#333
throughfaith said:
I meant that ' spiritual gifts ' are specific gifts given after regeneration.
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My interpretation is that it was a normative experience in the first church that each learned how to operate in the gifts after an initial infilling of the Holy Spirit experience.
 
Corban

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throughfaith said:
I don't think that's talking about individuals . But rather From The beginning, from moses to the present Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith .
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I doubt that you think that brother, not because you want to be untruthful, but because if you concede the point, your premise in the very first posting wobbles.

Chapter 12: starts with "wherefore", that is, a conclusion to what has gone before. This is cemented by those mentioned under faith to be a host of heavenly nature, though they wait in Hades (Heb.3:1) as Witnesses to what we go though - having gone through it themselves. And this list of men and women who have, Jesus as the "author" of their faith, starts with (i) Abel, and (ii) every man who has rightly believed that God is Creator (11:3-4).
 
Corban

Corban

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Scribe said:
The moment of revelation that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God is from the Father. We know that from what Jesus told Peter. Upon this rock I will build my church. Each person that puts faith in Jesus as the one who will save them does so because the Father gave them this illumination. This is from God and we cannot claim credit for that.
People can try and explain it but when we embrace it with our whole heart and commit to it, that is from the Father.
And then we become another living stone in the temple that makes up the church. Upon THIS rock the Rock of Jesus, the Rock of believing Who Jesus is, this Rock is from the Father and upon THIS ROCK I will build my Church.

That is the way I interpret that verse.
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This was my contention all along. I couldn't have put it better than you did.
 
T

throughfaith

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BenjaminN said:
Hallelujah - there might be light at the end of this dark tunnel of denying God's gift.
Click to expand...
q
Corban said:
I doubt that you think that brother, not because you want to be untruthful, but because if you concede the point, your premise in the very first posting wobbles.

Chapter 12: starts with "wherefore", that is, a conclusion to what has gone before. This is cemented by those mentioned under faith to be a host of heavenly nature, though they wait in Hades (Heb.3:1) as Witnesses to what we go though - having gone through it themselves. And this list of men and women who have, Jesus as the "author" of their faith, starts with (i) Abel, and (ii) every man who has rightly believed that God is Creator (11:3-4).
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I don't believe its about Jesus causing us to believe. In the sense of previenient grace .
 
T

throughfaith

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Scribe said:
The moment of revelation that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God is from the Father. We know that from what Jesus told Peter. Upon this rock I will build my church. Each person that puts faith in Jesus as the one who will save them does so because the Father gave them this illumination. This is from God and we cannot claim credit for that.
People can try and explain it but when we embrace it with our whole heart and commit to it, that is from the Father.
And then we become another living stone in the temple that makes up the church. Upon THIS rock the Rock of Jesus, the Rock of believing Who Jesus is, this Rock is from the Father and upon THIS ROCK I will build my Church.

That is the way I interpret that verse.
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But you may not then take however ,the father revealing to Peter and then say this how we all have a similar experience ourselves .That God reveals the same way to us . I would simply stop where the bible stops and conclude this happened to Peter . Just like Paul had his revelation. We don't take what happened to Paul and assume this is how God always deals with everyone. The same with Lydia, John the baptist , Elijha, Jonas ect . People get real picky on which example ought to be ongoing and universally applied . This is inductive reasoning. " Jesus spoke to the disciples , we are disciples therefore Jesus is speaking to us " ..Or even worse Jesus speaks and he is speaking to us directly in every verse ect . "Israel ? Yeah well ,we're Israel blah ,blah "
Acts ? well yeah its Gods word ,so its all to us blah ,blah "
"Hebrews ? yeah I know its written to hebrews but it all applies to us "
"James , yeah I know he is writing to the 12 tribes ,but its all to us regardless "
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#339
throughfaith said:
The reference to ' boasting ' is referring to ' works ' v faith .
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You did not answer the question. In fact I've had this same conversation maybe a half dozen times with others who are unable to answer the question.

Faith comes by hearing. It does. But why do some believe the Gospel upon hearing it, while others reject it?

I'm asking specifically, are you a better person than them? Are you wiser in understanding the Scriptures than them?

See this is THE exact point we have to ask ourselves when we boil this issue down to the bottom.

Why do YOU believe? WHERE did YOUR faith come from after you heard the Gospel?
 
T

throughfaith

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#340
PennEd said:
You did not answer the question. In fact I've had this same conversation maybe a half dozen times with others who are unable to answer the question.

Faith comes by hearing. It does. But why do some believe the Gospel upon hearing it, while others reject it?

I'm asking specifically, are you a better person than them? Are you wiser in understanding the Scriptures than them?

See this is THE exact point we have to ask ourselves when we boil this issue down to the bottom.

Why do YOU believe? WHERE did YOUR faith come from after you heard the Gospel?
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The bible tells us exactly why . The list would be too long to list all the individual reasons from person to person . But hardness of heart is the main reason.
 
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