When did the church begin ?

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tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#81
Oct 13, 2011
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#81
"The world began in Eden and ended in Los Angeles" (Phil Ochs).

 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#82
Aug 4, 2020
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#82
GaryA said:
The church began the day Christ was baptized.

He was the first member of the church - as the head of the body of Christ.

His "annointing" on that day by the Father placed Him as the 'head' of the church - and initiated His public ministry.

Afterward He went about adding souls to it.

Pentecost was about the empowering of the already-existing body of Christ.
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So was corneilus just being ' empowered 'when he received the Holy Spirit ?
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#83
Jul 2, 2011
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#83
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
This plea is in the Psalms, long before our Savior came to give His Gospel to all the earth.

All who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be taken up into the Body of Yeshua-Jesus, please do not over intellectualize our Father's will; that is a dangerous practice.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#84
Aug 4, 2020
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#84
JaumeJ said:
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
This plea is in the Psalms, long before our Savior came to give His Gospel to all the earth.

All who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be taken up into the Body of Yeshua-Jesus, please do not over intellectualize our Father's will; that is a dangerous practice.
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David prays this because he regularly saw the Spirit come UPON and leave Saul . No one was INDWELT by the Holy Spirit before the resurrection. No one INDWELT by the Holy Spirit can pray that prayer . Eph 1.13 , eph 4.30
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#85
Oct 13, 2011
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#85
throughfaith said:
David prays this because he regularly saw the Spirit come UPON and leave Saul . No one was INDWELT by the Holy Spirit before the resurrection. No one INDWELT by the Holy Spirit can pray that prayer . Eph 1.13 , eph 4.30
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I do not see the Holy Spirit leaving those who were faithful to God and His instructions in OT times.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#86
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#86
tribesman said:
I do not see the Holy Spirit leaving those who were faithful to God and His instructions in OT times.
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Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

But now, the Holy Spirit will never leave us, no matter what we do. It is the faith of Christ.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#87
Jul 2, 2011
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#87
throughfaith said:
David prays this because he regularly saw the Spirit come UPON and leave Saul . No one was INDWELT by the Holy Spirit before the resurrection. No one INDWELT by the Holy Spirit can pray that prayer . Eph 1.13 , eph 4.30
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Perhaps you need to read the Old Testament.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#88
Aug 4, 2020
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#88
JaumeJ said:
Perhaps you need to read the Old Testament.
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Then you.ll be able to quote the verse that says a person was INDWELT and SEALED by the HOLY SPIRIT then ? in the OT .
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#89
Oct 13, 2011
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#89
It's that unity of the one covenant. When David confessed his sin, he’s prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so and when did so he was repentant, he was trusting in Christ, he was a justified, converted believer. That is walking a life of being born again.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#90
Aug 4, 2020
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#90
tribesman said:
It's that unity of the one covenant. When David confessed his sin, he’s prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so and when did so he was repentant, he was trusting in Christ, he was a justified, converted believer. That is walking a life of being born again.
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Which verses are you referring to ?
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#91
Jul 2, 2011
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#91
tribesman said:
It's that unity of the one covenant. When David confessed his sin, he’s prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so and when did so he was repentant, he was trusting in Christ, he was a justified, converted believer. That is walking a life of being born again.
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If the Holy Spirit is indwelling, you know that all who were anointed by God through His prophets or otherwise were living in the Holy Spirit.

I am very sory you must only rely on the written code and not on the Holy Spirit bearing witness from your heart.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#92
Jul 31, 2013
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#92
throughfaith said:
No one INDWELT by the Holy Spirit can pray that prayer . Eph 1.13 , eph 4.30
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wouldn't those things mean rather that everyone who is indwelt with the Spirit prays that prayer and prays it with faith & thanksgiving?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#93
Jul 31, 2013
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#93
throughfaith said:
Then you.ll be able to quote the verse that says a person was INDWELT and SEALED by the HOLY SPIRIT then ? in the OT .
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in most cases in the OT the Spirit is said to come 'on' or 'over' a person rather than 'in'

however not here:

And He said to me, ​
“Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” ​
Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. And He said to me: ​
“Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. For they are impudent and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ As for them, whether they hear or whether they refuse — for they are a rebellious house — yet they will know that a prophet has been among them. And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you dwell among scorpions; do not be afraid of their words or dismayed by their looks, though they are a rebellious house. You shall speak My words to them, whether they hear or whether they refuse, for they are rebellious. But you, son of man, hear what I say to you. Do not be rebellious like that rebellious house; open your mouth and eat what I give you.”​
(Ezekiel 2:1-8)​

So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. Then the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and spoke with me and said to me: ​
“Go, shut yourself inside your house. And you, O son of man, surely they will put ropes on you and bind you with them, so that you cannot go out among them. I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and not be one to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious house. But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house."​
(Ezekiel 3:23-27)​
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#94
Oct 13, 2011
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#94
throughfaith said:
Which verses are you referring to ?
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It is implied that it was the Spirit that convicted David. Who else would it be?

The Holy Spirit was in David from the day he received it.
1Sam.16
[13] Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
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We can also see this regarding Joshua in Num.27:18.

Num.27
[18] And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
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The fact that the Spirit is spoken of as coming to, or came over, the prophets in OT times does not mean that they did not have the Spirit inherent. It is a presumptuous conclusion to draw that the Spirit "came and went" with the faithful OT Saints. There is no scripture for such.

Does not scripture talk about continuous Spirit infilling for believers in the NT (Eph.5: 18)? Should one then conclude that the Spirit comes and goes in the NT as well? Of course not.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#95
Aug 4, 2020
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#95
tribesman said:
It is implied that it was the Spirit that convicted David. Who else would it be?

The Holy Spirit was in David from the day he received it.


We can also see this regarding Joshua in Num.27:18.



The fact that the Spirit is spoken of as coming to, or came over, the prophets in OT times does not mean that they did not have the Spirit inherent. It is a presumptuous conclusion to draw that the Spirit "came and went" with the faithful OT Saints. There is no scripture for such.

Does not scripture talk about continuous Spirit infilling for believers in the NT (Eph.5: 18)? Should one then conclude that the Spirit comes and goes in the NT as well? Of course not.
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Does eph 4.30 and eph 1.13 sound like the Spirit comes and goes ? Scripture is clear . We should not need to take important things based on assumptions and speculations. Catholics do this when they say things like " The bible doesn't say we CANT pray to Mary "
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#96
Oct 13, 2011
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282
83
#96
posthuman said:
in most cases in the OT the Spirit is said to come 'on' or 'over' a person rather than 'in'

however not here:

And He said to me, ​
“Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” ​
Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. And He said to me: ​
“Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. For they are impudent and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ As for them, whether they hear or whether they refuse — for they are a rebellious house — yet they will know that a prophet has been among them. And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you dwell among scorpions; do not be afraid of their words or dismayed by their looks, though they are a rebellious house. You shall speak My words to them, whether they hear or whether they refuse, for they are rebellious. But you, son of man, hear what I say to you. Do not be rebellious like that rebellious house; open your mouth and eat what I give you.”​
(Ezekiel 2:1-8)​

So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. Then the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and spoke with me and said to me: ​
“Go, shut yourself inside your house. And you, O son of man, surely they will put ropes on you and bind you with them, so that you cannot go out among them. I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and not be one to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious house. But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house."​
(Ezekiel 3:23-27)​
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Good proof text. There is this notion, by some, that Spirit was a temporary visitor in the OT times, that came and went. However, this is not biblical. The difference between the anointing of the Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit should not be confused.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#97
Oct 13, 2011
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282
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#97
throughfaith said:
Does eph 4.30 and eph 1.13 sound like the Spirit comes and goes ? Scripture is clear . We should not need to take important things based on assumptions and speculations. Catholics do this when they say things like " The bible doesn't say we CANT pray to Mary "
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Not sure whom you address. I do not claim that the Spirit comes and goes at all. It is those who deny the indwelling of the Spirit in OT times who do so.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#98
Aug 4, 2020
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#98
tribesman said:
It is implied that it was the Spirit that convicted David. Who else would it be?

The Holy Spirit was in David from the day he received it.


We can also see this regarding Joshua in Num.27:18.



The fact that the Spirit is spoken of as coming to, or came over, the prophets in OT times does not mean that they did not have the Spirit inherent. It is a presumptuous conclusion to draw that the Spirit "came and went" with the faithful OT Saints. There is no scripture for such.

Does not scripture talk about continuous Spirit infilling for believers in the NT (Eph.5: 18)? Should one then conclude that the Spirit comes and goes in the NT as well? Of course not.
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UPON .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#99
Aug 4, 2020
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#99
tribesman said:
Good proof text. There is this notion, by some, that Spirit was a temporary visitor in the OT times, that came and went. However, this is not biblical. The difference between the anointing of the Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit should not be confused.
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John 7
37¶In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified .)
John 16 .7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 11
14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#100
Aug 4, 2020
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#100
throughfaith said:
John 7
37¶In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified .)
John 16 .7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 11
14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
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None of this is happening in the OT
 
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