Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

^ EDIT (timed-out!):

"[I find the wording in Col2:16-17 interesting "which ARE [present tense, PLURAL] A SHADOW [SINGULAR] of the things coming [PLURAL]"... note: NOT that I believe Paul's point is to say that WE are to "observe" them... no.]

I agree there are three states of existence, one being unclothed. And I do believe the OT saints were unclothed until Christ paid for their redemption.

We don’t have to guess at what state we will be in when we die because 1Corinthians 15:53-54 tells us that this corruption puts on in corruption WHEN this mortal puts on immortality. When this body dies, we become immortal.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

David is now in Heaven, along with all the other OT saints. Ever since the resurrection of Christ, the only people who have gone to Hades are the unbelievers, the ungodly, and the wicked.

So what does this verse really mean: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand... (Acts 2:34)? The context makes it clear that the subject is the resurrection, ascension, and exaltation of Christ. It is not David who is seated at the right hand of the Father, but the Lord Jesus Christ.

But how do we know that David is in the New Jerusalem in Heaven?

EPHESIANS 4: THE ASCENSION OF CHRIST WITH THE OT SAINTS
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [Note: the OT saints in Sheol/Hades were virtually in captivity. But Christ tore down the gates of Hades, and brought the OT saints with Him to Heaven]

9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [Note: "the lower parts of the earth" = Sheol/Hades]

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. [Note: while the body of Christ lay in the sepulcher (tomb), His soul and spirit were in Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights, while He "preached to the spirits in prison". Then He took all those in "Abraham's Bosom" (the OT saints) to Heaven where they are now seen as "the spirits of just men made perfect" -- Heb 12:22-24]

David is in heaven for sure but his earthly body was still in the tomb as was the bodies of all the saints that didn’t stand in judgement against Israel.

What David’s body still being in the tomb means is that the resurrection of the dead has nothing to do with raising dead earthly bodies.

Yes it does say kingdom.

This verse sums up the meaning of the Rapture: (1) those who died "in Christ" went directly to Heaven to be with Christ. But that was only their souls and spirits. Since God has promised immortal, gloried bodies to all His children, Christ brings those souls ans spirits with Him at the Rapture and unites them with incorruptible, immortal bodies.

(2) At the same time Paul says "we shall be changed". This refers to those who are alive when the Rapture takes place. They must not only receive transformed glorified body, but the sin nature must also be eradication, so that the those living saints are perfected immediately.

How do we know that they will be perfected? Here is one passage:

1 JOHN: 3: THE PERFECTION OF THE SAINTS AT THE RAPTURE
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [Note: "we shall be like Him" means that we shall be just as pure and perfect as Christ]
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

What you are attempting to suggest is that both parts of 1Cor15:53 (as well as both parts of 1Cor15:54) are speaking of the EXACT SAME THING, as though Paul's point about the "corruptible" IS [one and the same as] the point he's making about the "mortal"... However, even though this is referring to the same point-in-time, he is speaking of two distinct things,
in the following ways:


--"[this] corruptible [G5349 - phtharton/phthartos]" is speaking of "the DEAD [in Christ]"... Compare with the Greek word in Acts 13:36 (re: David's body in the grave), "[fell on asleep, and was laid unto his fathers], AND SAW CORRUPTION [G1312 - diaphthora/diaphthoran -- "from G1311 - diaphtheiro," which is from "dia [G1223] and phtheiro [G5351 (<--related to the G5349 word in 1Cor15:53,54 re: "DEAD" ppl!)]" ;

"AND" [<--our text under discussion says]

--"[this] mortal [G2349 - thneton/thnétos]" is speaking of the "STILL-LIVING" / "we which are ALIVE [/LIVING] and remain [/remaining] unto..." (those of us STILL-LIVING at the point-in-time being referenced)... Compare with this Greek word also found in Romans 6:12, in 2Cor4:11, in Rom8:11 (ALL referring to "the here and now" in the BODIES we STILL LIVE IN!), same as in 2Cor5:4/1Cor15:53,54 the verses I already pointed out, as meaning this





So... Paul is not merely repeating something (one and the same thing, in two different ways); he is telling of two distinct things that will take place (at the time-slot being referenced by him)... referring (distinctly) TO:

1) "the DEAD IN Christ"

AND

2) the "we which are LIVING [/ALIVE] and remaining [/remain] UNTO ___"

(that is, BOTH ASPECTS of the "ONE BODY" [see again Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)])

[
Absolutely said:
John was told "I am a fellow servant with you and your fellow prophets..."

That alone makes it so

QUOTE="TheDivineWatermark, post: 4426214, member: 273334"]Who are you saying says this to John? (and which verse?)[/QUOTE]




simple google search....are you kidding me????

you really have no interest in what totally removed your theory????

Revelation 22:9 Parallel Verses [⇓ See commentary ⇓]
Revelation 22:9, NIV: "But he said to me, 'Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!'"

Revelation 22:9, ESV: "but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”"

Revelation 22:9, KJV: "Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Revelation 22:9, NASB: "But he said to me, 'Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.'"

Revelation 22:9, NLT: "But he said, 'No, don't worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!'"

Revelation 22:9, CSB: "But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you, your brothers the prophets, and those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!""

^ [ @Absolutely ] no... I'm asking who YOU are saying is the "he" in that verse. ["he said to me"]



IOW, what in this text (or other) "identifies" who is saying this to him (according to you)?

14When the time came, Jesus and the apostles sat down together at the table.a 15Jesus said, “I have been very eager to eat this Passover meal with you before my suffering begins. 16For I tell you now that I won’t eat this meal again until its meaning is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.”


Off the top of my head.
I think with the meal he ment where they would be all together again.
As for the wine the wedding feast.
Will do some research of it and get back .

Then how do you explain the dead walking in Jerusalem after jesus gave up the ghost?.......proof of life.

History? What is that? Christians prefer what they heard last week from the pulpit, even if it is complete rubbish. I so thank God that he put in me a love of history, because I have found out all the things that the bible doesn't tell me. And for those who want to tell me that is sacriledge as there is no truth out side of the bible, you are wrong, because we are told that all the books in the world cannot contain the things that Jesus did and said.


So how do you know that what God is saying to someone is not one of the things that Jesus said that is not contained in the bible?

As i read i don't know where to start......
The Bible doesn't contradict itself.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Only God has immortality.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
There is only 2 houses, only two bodies earthly mortal and Heavenly eternal.

In all the 1700 biblical occurrences of the words “soul” and “spirit” not once are they referred to as being immortal or undying.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
We have all sinned.....

To teach that we don't die is to follow the devil.
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Do we continue to live when we die?..... or is that a lie.....

After death everything seems to go back from whence it came.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It returns to how it was. Life does back to God and dust back to the ground.
The words “breath” and “spirit” are often used interchangeably in the Bible. Job said,
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
James wrote, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). The word “spirit” has a marginal reference which reads, “or breath.” This is very important. The actual root word in the Greek is “pneuma,” a word which means “breath” or “air.” We take our English word “pneumonia” from pneuma because it is a disease of the lungs, or of breathing.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The psalmist describes death in these words,
Psa 104:29 and 30 ..... thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created:...
Here the order is reversed, and their breath returns to God at death. Solomon said the spirit returns. Here God gives the spirit to create, but Genesis says He gave the breath to create. It only makes sense when we understand that the two words are used interchangeably and mean the same thing.

Dust + the breath/ spirit of life, = a living soul. Gen 2:7
It does not teach in the Bible that the soul was added to the body to give life or that the soul is separate and has life.
Be careful because life is often referred to in the Bible as the soul.

So when does the soul (body and Spirit) go to heaven?
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. verse 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
David was right out there in his grave, and had not yet ascended to heaven. If the man after God’s own heart had not received his reward 1,000 years after death, what about all the other good people who had lived and died up to that time? They, also, were resting in their graves, awaiting the call of God in the resurrection.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
This last-day reward is further described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:53, “... and this mortal must put on immortality.” When does it happen? “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump” (Verse 52).
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The bible doesn't contradict itself. people just twist it to say what they want...

Some of the earthly bodies of the saints did rise and walk the streets of Jerusalem that day and I believe that was more proof of how much God loved the Jews and wanted them to turn to him. But many, even after seeing the dead raised, still rejected Christ.

My opinion is that the raising of the dead on the same day as the Resurrection is meant to conceal the real truth of what the resurrection truly is because 99.9% of Christians believe the resurrection is the raising of dead earthly bodies. What I don't know for sure is whether those that came out of their graves that day, appeared to the people in a reconstituted earthly body or whether they appeared in their glorified bodies because Ezekiel 37 seems to point to a reconstituted body.

All of the deep things of God are hidden, it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the riches of kings to seek it out.

And the 0.1% who do not believe this are simply deluding themselves. Resurrection -- by definition -- means the raising of dead bodies from their graves (or tombs). I have to wonder where you come up with your bizarre notions, since the KJV1611 does not present such weird ideas.

What I'm suggesting is that at the very latest, immortality for the believer starts with the death of this earthly body. I would argue that it starts at salvation but that's beside the point.

Paul in my opinion indicates that putting on immortality and incorruption occur at the same time. Which only makes sense, because Christ has already paid for our right to enter into heaven in a glorified body. There would no reason to enter heaven in a disembodied state, the fact that the OT saints couldn't enter heaven in a disembodied state proves that we can't go to heaven in a disembodied state.

You should be able to figure out from this and I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because I usually spend a lot of time on comments to you and you never reply back.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

That which is sown is BARE GRAIN, it does not have a body. God gives the grain a body as he pleases.
Our human body IS NOT the BARE GRAIN and it IS NOT the thing that has to die.

That should make it ABUNDANTLY clear that dead earthly bodies have absolutely NOTHING to do with the resurrection. But I would bet my last dime that it wont be clear to you.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the living soul) is sown in corruption (human body); it (the living soul) is raised in incorruption (spiritual body):
1Co 15:43 It (the living soul) is sown in dishonour (human body); it (the living soul) is raised in glory (spiritual body): it (the living soul) is sown in weakness (human body); it (the living soul) is raised in power (spiritual body):
1Co 15:44 It (the living soul) is sown a natural body (human body); it (the living soul) is raised a spiritual body (glorified body). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (it); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus said he had come to set the captives free. Those that were in Abrahams bosom were captive. That is proof of life my friend.
What you need to do is let the Holy Spirit guide you. Jesus said when he talks of earthly things we don't understand so how can we understand heavenly things.
At the time of our lord's death the ramson had been paid. Christ desended before ascending.
Why do you have a hard time in connecting the dots? Stop seeking for yourself my friend and start seeking the Lord.

Fellow servant would be just that.
A man in heaven
Saint
Patriarch
Martyred one
Etc