Back-loading Works into the Gospel:
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Hello ChosenbyHim, the only way that good works, etc., truly become part of our salvation, front-end or back-end, is when they are said to be a ~necessary~ part of our salvation, that doing them is a requirement, without which we cannot be saved. On the other hand, saying that a true Christian WILL change, WILL end up doing good works (because of the changes that have been wrought in them by God .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5, 8-9, 10) is very different than saying that he/she MUST do these things (as if doing them is some sort of requirement of their salvation).
True Christians act like unbelievers at times, and unbelievers can and do act like Christians at times/in part, but unbelievers hardly have the same regard for God, for sin, for the spiritual well-being of the lost, etc. IOW, in the end, the two groups can be distinguished by what they do, because unbelievers typically ACT like unbelievers, and 'true' Christians typically ACT like Christians.
While this is certainly part of the evidence that bears out the claims of being a Christian, it is not enough evidence, in general. There are true Christians, who (of course) have the inner witness of the Spirit, who constantly question their salvation (for any number of reasons).
On the other hand, there are those who spend their entire lives in church claiming and truly believing themselves Christians who are deceived (one of the best examples of this is found in Matthew 7:22-23). I, for instance, was baptized as an infant and was raised (so to speak) in the church, and I always believed that I was really and truly a believer, until the day I actually become one that is, two months after my 30th birthday.
I've got no argument with any of that, but you seem to be arguing against yourself to a degree, against what you said earlier in this thread
True, which also makes the changed life/lifestyle that Christians choose to lead (rather than continuing in the sinful lifestyle that they used to lead), the good works that we do BECAUSE we love God, our abhorrence of and repentance from sin, etc., etc., some of the best evidence that we really and truly are who we claim to be, does it not
God bless you!
~Deut
True Christians act like unbelievers at times, and unbelievers can and do act like Christians at times/in part, but unbelievers hardly have the same regard for God, for sin, for the spiritual well-being of the lost, etc. IOW, in the end, the two groups can be distinguished by what they do, because unbelievers typically ACT like unbelievers, and 'true' Christians typically ACT like Christians.
While this is certainly part of the evidence that bears out the claims of being a Christian, it is not enough evidence, in general. There are true Christians, who (of course) have the inner witness of the Spirit, who constantly question their salvation (for any number of reasons).
On the other hand, there are those who spend their entire lives in church claiming and truly believing themselves Christians who are deceived (one of the best examples of this is found in Matthew 7:22-23). I, for instance, was baptized as an infant and was raised (so to speak) in the church, and I always believed that I was really and truly a believer, until the day I actually become one that is, two months after my 30th birthday.
I've got no argument with any of that, but you seem to be arguing against yourself to a degree, against what you said earlier in this thread
True, which also makes the changed life/lifestyle that Christians choose to lead (rather than continuing in the sinful lifestyle that they used to lead), the good works that we do BECAUSE we love God, our abhorrence of and repentance from sin, etc., etc., some of the best evidence that we really and truly are who we claim to be, does it not
God bless you!
~Deut
Yes the Works salvation cult is huge.. I see them posting nearly every day in here preaching their works salvation doctrine and they get a good number of thumbs up and ticks and hearts too..
Salvation is a very simple thing to have.. The Yoke of the LORD Jesus Christ is very light.. But people simply cannot believe it.. They want to be self justified..
Salvation is a very simple thing to have.. The Yoke of the LORD Jesus Christ is very light.. But people simply cannot believe it.. They want to be self justified..
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Many false religions and cults set out to back-load works into the Gospel. Here are some examples of the end result of that below:
Saved by grace through faith and works.
Initially saved by grace through faith, then maintained by works/performance/commandment keeping.
Initially saved by grace through faith, then maintained by sinless perfection.
Salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. (Galatians 1:6-9)
Saved by grace through faith and works.
Initially saved by grace through faith, then maintained by works/performance/commandment keeping.
Initially saved by grace through faith, then maintained by sinless perfection.
Salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. (Galatians 1:6-9)
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The words used in the quoted scripture about works is "" we should "" but you have changed them to ""Christians are required"" that's how works salvation preaching starts.. Soon the required easily transformed into a MUST.. And then it is a clear and unadulterated Works salvation doctrine..
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I think in his long winded-ness you missed the main point of what he was saying.
They don't know what the Solution is for their grieving. They focus on themselves and what they think they should do, as the majority of all religions tell them to, instead of seeking the Blesser, or as @calibob put, it the Lord Jesus Christ.
Most people, and all religion, miss this important fact.
Which, I think is the point of the OP.
They don't know what the Solution is for their grieving. They focus on themselves and what they think they should do, as the majority of all religions tell them to, instead of seeking the Blesser, or as @calibob put, it the Lord Jesus Christ.
Most people, and all religion, miss this important fact.
Which, I think is the point of the OP.
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Hello throughfaith, as I was saying to ChosenbyHim (in the post that you are replying to .. post #6), there are many different bits of evidence that we piece together from our lives to prove that we are who we claim to be (true believers), and our grieving over/being horrified by our sins, while certainly significant, is just ~part~ of that evidence.
Also, if a person sins and then wonders whether or not they are "grieving enough", chances are good that they are NOT grieving over their sins as true Christians do, IOW, with regard to God, but are instead self-focused and worried about how the repercussions of their sinful actions may end up affecting them, either in this life (in regard to what they want) and/or in the age to come. So, if a person who claims to be a Christian is concerned with themselves when they sin, rather than God (and others), this is a good indicator that they may have "failed the test" .. 2 Corinthians 13:5, that they are NOT true believers.
Of course, this is why we do not look at just one of the indicators for saving faith as we seek to obey verses like 2 Corinthians 13:5 (commands that we are to examine ourselves and to prove thereby who we truly are, true Christians or CINO*), but at many/all of the things that regularly accompany salvation together as our proof (for instance, do our lives, as Christians, regularly demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit .. e.g. Galatians 5:22-23, or are they still characterized by a brutish love of self, love of sin, and love of this world .. Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 2:15-16)
You continue.
True Christians (assuming, of course, that we are mentally reasonable/rational when we sin) desire nothing more than to be forgiven of our sins and to have our full fellowship with Him/the "joy of our salvation" (as King David put it) restored, as well to begin to do the things again which please, honor and glorify Him. So, while some atheists, JW's, LDS and CINO* Roman Catholics may commit the ~additional~ sin of suicide (if the weight of their guilt over a massive wrong-doing becomes too much for them to bear), that is hardly the typical response of a true believer over their sin. So, committing suicide because of one's guilt over their sin would be another indicator that someone has failed the test (2 Corinthians 13:5).
Quite frankly, if someone who claims to be a Christian has no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness (from their sin and from the power that sin has over them in this life), but instead seeks forgiveness for their sins as a means of escaping the fires of Hell alone, THAT is a primary indicator that such a person is not saved (because a person like that is self-focused/self-interested). So, while such a person no doubt has a GREAT interest in the blessings that God has to offer them, they show themselves to be CINO*, because they show that they have no interest in (nor love for) the Blesser Himself.
~Deut
*CINO = Christians In Name Only
Also, if a person sins and then wonders whether or not they are "grieving enough", chances are good that they are NOT grieving over their sins as true Christians do, IOW, with regard to God, but are instead self-focused and worried about how the repercussions of their sinful actions may end up affecting them, either in this life (in regard to what they want) and/or in the age to come. So, if a person who claims to be a Christian is concerned with themselves when they sin, rather than God (and others), this is a good indicator that they may have "failed the test" .. 2 Corinthians 13:5, that they are NOT true believers.
Of course, this is why we do not look at just one of the indicators for saving faith as we seek to obey verses like 2 Corinthians 13:5 (commands that we are to examine ourselves and to prove thereby who we truly are, true Christians or CINO*), but at many/all of the things that regularly accompany salvation together as our proof (for instance, do our lives, as Christians, regularly demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit .. e.g. Galatians 5:22-23, or are they still characterized by a brutish love of self, love of sin, and love of this world .. Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 2:15-16)
You continue.
True Christians (assuming, of course, that we are mentally reasonable/rational when we sin) desire nothing more than to be forgiven of our sins and to have our full fellowship with Him/the "joy of our salvation" (as King David put it) restored, as well to begin to do the things again which please, honor and glorify Him. So, while some atheists, JW's, LDS and CINO* Roman Catholics may commit the ~additional~ sin of suicide (if the weight of their guilt over a massive wrong-doing becomes too much for them to bear), that is hardly the typical response of a true believer over their sin. So, committing suicide because of one's guilt over their sin would be another indicator that someone has failed the test (2 Corinthians 13:5).
Quite frankly, if someone who claims to be a Christian has no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness (from their sin and from the power that sin has over them in this life), but instead seeks forgiveness for their sins as a means of escaping the fires of Hell alone, THAT is a primary indicator that such a person is not saved (because a person like that is self-focused/self-interested). So, while such a person no doubt has a GREAT interest in the blessings that God has to offer them, they show themselves to be CINO*, because they show that they have no interest in (nor love for) the Blesser Himself.
~Deut
2 Corinthians 13
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
*CINO = Christians In Name Only
Examining yourself regarding your saved or unsaved state would be the wrong place to look. You'd be seeing a new creature plus unredeemed flesh - quite a confusing mess. For assurance of salvation a person needs to examine the word of God instead; "hath everlasting life".
Hello throughfaith, I believe I was thinking of personal experience rather than of Bible verses (like you find in Psalm 51 and 2 Corinthians 7, etc.)
What is it that is "frowned upon", "even by unbelievers" (a Christian grieving/expressing godly sorrow over his/her sins, or did you mean something else )
Thanks
~Deut
What is it that is "frowned upon", "even by unbelievers"
(a Christian grieving/expressing godly sorrow over his/her sins, or did you mean something else )Thanks
~Deut
Hello throughfaith, I believe I was thinking of personal experience rather than of Bible verses (like you find in Psalm 51 and 2 Corinthians 7, etc.)
What is it that is "frowned upon", "even by unbelievers" (a Christian grieving/expressing godly sorrow over his/her sins, or did you mean something else )
Thanks
~Deut
What is it that is "frowned upon", "even by unbelievers"
(a Christian grieving/expressing godly sorrow over his/her sins, or did you mean something else )Thanks
~Deut
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This is called worldly sorrow is it not?
When Christians sin , we are broken because we have sinned against our heavenly Father , as David said in Psalm 51:4
Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be proved right when You speak and blameless when You judge.
...xox...
When Christians sin , we are broken because we have sinned against our heavenly Father , as David said in Psalm 51:4
Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be proved right when You speak and blameless when You judge.
...xox...
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E
Yes
it this is said to tribulation saints. Or those living during the great tribulation
and salvation here means physical life, not eternal life
fact is, no one could endure enough to be saved, on our own, every day we deserve hell, it is not until a believer realises this that he can stop looking at self and destroy his or her pride land start taking the agape love God pours out to them and use that love to agape the world, as Jesus said, and only THEN will they begin to walk like Christ
it this is said to tribulation saints. Or those living during the great tribulation
and salvation here means physical life, not eternal life
fact is, no one could endure enough to be saved, on our own, every day we deserve hell, it is not until a believer realises this that he can stop looking at self and destroy his or her pride land start taking the agape love God pours out to them and use that love to agape the world, as Jesus said, and only THEN will they begin to walk like Christ
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Yep
james does not contradict paul, he compliments him
paul spoke to workers, ,people who thought they needed to earn salvation or maintain salvation, he said plainly, we were saved by Gods mercy not by good works which we have done, through the washing and new birth of thenspirit
James, talking to hearers and not doers, asked the question, can their CLAIMED faith save them?
well of course not, Paul said we are saved by grace through faith not works, but our new creation is for good works,
if we claim to have faith, but are hearers only, can our faith save us? Well of course not. Our faith is dead,
he was talking to induvidual people. So they can examine themselves if they have faith not to fruit inspectors, so we can look at others to judge if they are saved or not
the self righteous church has destroyed the meaning of James to add works to the gospel of Christ
james does not contradict paul, he compliments him
paul spoke to workers, ,people who thought they needed to earn salvation or maintain salvation, he said plainly, we were saved by Gods mercy not by good works which we have done, through the washing and new birth of thenspirit
James, talking to hearers and not doers, asked the question, can their CLAIMED faith save them?
well of course not, Paul said we are saved by grace through faith not works, but our new creation is for good works,
if we claim to have faith, but are hearers only, can our faith save us? Well of course not. Our faith is dead,
he was talking to induvidual people. So they can examine themselves if they have faith not to fruit inspectors, so we can look at others to judge if they are saved or not
the self righteous church has destroyed the meaning of James to add works to the gospel of Christ
E
Because he is talking about the time of great tribulation, not tribulations we suffer in this lifetime,
he is speaking courage to those who are suffering, that if they just endure, he will be coming soon.
I agile being alive and seeing your redeemer return and defeat evil, and entering the true kingdom with him, as he sets up his throne,
wow
he is speaking courage to those who are suffering, that if they just endure, he will be coming soon.
I agile being alive and seeing your redeemer return and defeat evil, and entering the true kingdom with him, as he sets up his throne,
wow