Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

We are not talking about them

we are talking about the ones who graduated

and by the way, everyone knows things are sin, they do not really even need the law to tell them

the law was written for those who think they have no sin, so they have no excuse

Yep

but we know what context you post them in

my comment still stands

salvation is by grace through faith no works lest anyone should boast

you all love to boast, well good luck boasting to God

if it’s grace it’s no longer works otherwise grace is no longer grace

But no one can graduate unless they're first through the class. It's an impossibility.

But noo...no not everyone does. This is exactly why the law was given as explicitly stated by Paul in the verses I just posted. The law shows what sin is. That's why it was given first. There's an order to this process that we're inadvertently shortcutting when you say the portion in red, which can lead folks to a false "christ" of their own imagination; a personal idol ("well I don't think Christ/God would have a problem with me doing this..."); a "christ" of their feelings instead of truth.

We (you and I) have the benefit of knowing that all fall short of the glory of God (because we study)...but not everyone falls short in that Glory in the same ways because each person has their own unique weaknesses in this flesh to conquer. Some have proclivities for lying, others for stealing, others for fornication, others for greed, others for homosexuality, etc...

So how can a person know how they specifically fall short of that glory if they're not being taught the law? How can they know what the Almighty determines as right or wrong in their particular lives as opposed to another's life? How can they know which things to fall on their knees to Christ for if they're not taught the Almighty's standard?

Romans 10:13-14 [brackets mine]
indeed "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 [but] How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?


This is why the law of Moses was taught to gentiles every sabbath in the early church. There's an order to the process. Can't be led to Christ unless taught the law. But today, we tell people to believe in Christ to go to heaven rather than to hell, and then teach them our particular denomination's rules. It's repeating the strategy of the Pharisees all over again, making void the law of God with our traditions.

Truth?

Nothing wrong with boasting, as long as it's in the correct things...

Jeremiah 9:23
This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, nor the strong man in his strength, nor the wealthy man in his riches. 24 But let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, who exercises loving devotion, justice and righteousness on the earth— for I delight in these things,”


I truly understand and know the Father...because I study His law.

Amen. Again, the following is all in the same letter Paul wrote to Titus. The truth matching your statement is also marked in green below:


Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:8
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Titus 3:14
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.


Notice how Paul puts it all together.

Well you GOT to know the difference In willful sinning, and Ignorant sinning, And when
Satan is playing with Your MIND. And when Satan puts something in OUR minds, if we resist Satan, And the things that Satan puts in our minds, And not dwell on it, we have not sinned, it is when we Dwell on it is when we sin, I am in the Flesh And HAFT TO fight off Satan just like YESUAH DID, He was temped just like us,

Is it possible not to sin for just one day?

No.

Can you name a day when you didn't sin? I'm sure you would remember it, because you would be the only person in history to have accomplished such a feat.

ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE there sins and want their sins and salvation to, BUT they will not get both, IT is REPENT, and give them ALL UP, OR be lost AND destroyed in the lake of fire, repent or perish, you can not get it any more simple then that

So why do you reject it?

Let me rephrase the question:

How many times a day would you say you WILLFULLY sin - either by thought, word, or deed?


(this is going to be interesting)

No.

Can you name a day when you didn't sin?

I'm sure you would remember it, because you would be the only person in history to have accomplished such a feat.

I don't
I just don't try to pick out what I like and DO AWAY WITH THE REST,
And I trust that ALL is FOR me and to guide me, When GOD says REPENT we must REPENT, AND GIVE ALL of our sins UP, STRIVE TO enter in, This means fight the GOOD fight of faith, OF giving up our sins,
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

But no one can graduate unless they're first through the class. It's an impossibility.



But noo...no not everyone does. This is exactly why the law was given as explicitly stated by Paul in the verses I just posted. The law shows what sin is. That's why it was given first. There's an order to this process that we're inadvertently shortcutting when you say the portion in red, which can lead folks to a false "christ" of their own imagination; a personal idol ("well I don't think Christ/God would have a problem with me doing this..."); a "christ" of their feelings instead of truth.

We (you and I) have the benefit of knowing that all fall short of the glory of God (because we study)...but not everyone falls short in that Glory in the same ways because each person has their own unique weaknesses in this flesh to conquer. Some have proclivities for lying, others for stealing, others for fornication, others for greed, others for homosexuality, etc...

So how can a person know how they specifically fall short of that glory if they're not being taught the law? How can they know what the Almighty determines as right or wrong in their particular lives as opposed to another's life? How can they know which things to fall on their knees to Christ for if they're not taught the Almighty's standard?


Romans 10:13-14 [brackets mine]
indeed "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 [but] How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?


This is why the law of Moses was taught to gentiles every sabbath in the early church. There's an order to the process. Can't be led to Christ unless taught the law. But today, we tell people to believe in Christ to go to heaven rather than to hell, and then teach them our particular denomination's rules. It's repeating the strategy of the Pharisees all over again, making void the law of God with our traditions.



Truth?




Nothing wrong with boasting, as long as it's in the correct things...

Jeremiah 9:23
This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, nor the strong man in his strength, nor the wealthy man in his riches. 24 But let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, who exercises loving devotion, justice and righteousness on the earth— for I delight in these things,”


I truly understand and know the Father...because I study His law.



Amen. Again, the following is all in the same letter Paul wrote to Titus. The truth matching your statement is also marked in green below:


Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:8
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Titus 3:14
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.


Notice how Paul puts it all together.

Willfully none

abraham did, Noah did, Ninevah did, as did many people who never saw the law

I think Paul stated it clearly in Romans 1. Men knew sin was sin and knew by it they were worthy of death, but they loved their sin hence God gave them over to a depraved mind

this was in the begining, no law was yet,given

so your wrong man

the boasting paul spoke of us boasting of saving oneself by your own works, he mentioned again in Romans 4, when he claimed a fact that if abraham was found righteous by works, he would have something to boast,

you boast when you earn rewards, again salvation is a gift. You want to try to earn it good luck

if you truly studied his law you would be petrified and humbled by how truly sinful you are, not pumping your chest, boasting of all your good deeds, while judging us tax collectors who got on our knees and Called out for Gods mercy

works are a result of salvation not a means of salvation

the law is in essence a schoolmaster or tutor, who helps us come to Christ,

to try to use it after you have come to Christ, again, is like going back and starting over, you will never grow in Christ, if you ever came to Christ at all

They never saw a codification of the Almighty's commands, statutes and laws. But He still spoke them to them.

Abraham:

Genesis 26:5 - "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."


Noah:

Genesis 7:1 - "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."

2 Peter 2:5 - "...a preacher of righteousness."


Ninevah:

Jonah 1:1 - "The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

Jonah 3:3-5 - "Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh...4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

Jonah 3:6-9
When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”


Folks must know how they're wrong before they can be saved from it or judged for it. That's the justice of God.





They didn't know it within themselves. It was manifested to them by the Almighty. In the process of salvation, one must first know how they're wrong in the eyes of the Almighty, else He is unjust if He judges them.

Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


...Paul continues...


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

[Notice these men knew the Almighty.]

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

[notice in verse 23 that Paul just described these men breaking the commandment of graven images]

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


These men had the truth but changed it into a lie.




I've been here for a long time. Don't you think I would've been banned by now if I was preaching salvation by works? Clearly the moderators see that I've never said that, but for some reason you refuse to see otherwise.

"We were not saved by good works, we were saved to do good works." - Paul

The process:

1) The law was given to show us how we need to be saved

2) The Messiah saves setting us right

3) Then we are expected to obey in righteousness



This portion here is a slew of unsubatantiated accusations based on how you feel, not based on what I actually said. It's a strawman that doesn't exist.

Boasting in knowing God (which He literally suggests to do instead) is not boasting in good deeds. Posting passages of the apostles telling us that "we were saved to do good deeds" isn't me boasting of any of my good deeds (you can't name one thing I've done for others), nor is it me judging anyone. In no post have I judged anyone.

If you feel judged it's not me judging you at all, but the cleansing Word doing its job trying to clean the inside of the cup. That's what it does.




This is partially correct and partially incorrect.

True: "works are not a means of salvation"

False: "works are the result of salvation"

Paul and all the apostles implore the believer to do good works and to cease from evil deeds because we've been saved. So doing good works is a choice, not automatic. I just posted the passages from Titus literally saying this.



No, trying to use it to save oneself is going backwards and starting over, denying The Messiah's work.

Many new believers start their journey first by confessing Christ, which is awesome; salvation...but then they're taught to stay away from the Almighty's rules, even though that's when training in righteousness begins.

The Jews were given the Law first and then the Messiah second, so they had to learn its fulfillment. Think of it as them starting off as "left of center" and must move towards the center (rightwards).

Meanwhile, the Gentiles were given the Messiah first and then must learn what the Father deems as good & evil and walk in righteousness. They start off as "right of center" and must move towards the center (leftwards)...

...but unfortunately gentiles have been reading letters written to Jews intended to move Jews further right, which has taken gentile believers farther and farther away from the center to the point where we have so many wacky, perverse, dark practices in today's church and believers doubting they can walk righteously for even 1 day.

The class is taught by the Master in Matthew 5

After a person comes to Christ they are no longer under the law as a teacher. The Law ONLY teaches us to come to Christ. It doesn't have the power to do anything else.

It is the Holy Spirit that teaches the Believer what to fall on their knees before God for. Not their imagination of what they think the law says.

You are right though, partially. Most denominations don't teach the law correctly that I have seen. No denomination says that the Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Most denominations say either the Christian is still under the law or not under the law.

Really you could not break this down? How rude

1. Yes they know right from wrong and no they did Not have the law

2 many people teach salvation by works here so I doubt it is a van able offense it
Many would be gone

Next time smaller
Posts please

Ok.



Maybe it's a few more instances of you misunderstanding what they're saying. It's against the rules here to go against the basic tenants of the faith.



Well I replied to each of your replies. I follow the style of my fellow servants, so sometimes truth can't be whittled down into a nifty soundbite. Can't imagine Paul being told that his letters are too long. But if you don't prefer to digest it all you're free not to of course.

I'll do my best to simply if you do your best to understand.

It is not that. It is just very hard on a small phone to try to break up large posts.

If works salvation is illegal then they are not forcing that rule

I understand. This is not my first go around with Hebrew roots

On one's birthday. Sin is an act of transgressing the law. A newborn baby does not sin.

By your own words you condemn yourself.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.

Corrupt doctrine which is produced by a corrupt gospel. A corrupt gospel does not lead to eternal life.

Be wary of those who teach the false doctrine of asceticism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger