Calvinists are preaching a false message .

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soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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John 1-2 explains it well :)

John the Baptist.


Now in John 3:5 what does Christ mean by saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What is this water? We understand Spirit is the Holy Spirit, but what is the water?
water of life
I think the water here means The rules of life.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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John 1-2 explains it well :)

John the Baptist.


Now in John 3:5 what does Christ mean by saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What is this water? We understand Spirit is the Holy Spirit, but what is the water?
Remember it says ' born of ' and is contrasted with ' flesh is flesh '
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,317
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What is this water? We understand Spirit is the Holy Spirit, but what is the water?
The Word of God is often referred to as water in the Bible because the Word acts as a cleansing agent, which explains what Paul meant when he wrote concerning Jesus’ cleansing the church “that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” (Eph 5:26-27) <- from my search engine ;):)The saving baptism is of the Holy Spirit of God, not earthly water.

John the Baptist said this of Jesus: “He on Whom you see the Spirit
descend and remain is the One Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.”
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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John 1-2 explains it well :)

John the Baptist.


Now in John 3:5 what does Christ mean by saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What is this water? We understand Spirit is the Holy Spirit, but what is the water?
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Flesh is flesh. Born of flesh and of Spirit .
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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Could be the Mothers' waters ' ( born of flesh ) A jew believed his ethnicity was enough , but they had to also be born of the Spirit not just of flesh.
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Nope not born of flesh from the mother, Christ said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and we know the flesh is corrupt and fallen and has no place in God's kingdom, This is why we will be given new bodies upon the reresection. Therefore an earthly birth does not qualify.

So what could water be? Maybe it has to do with the previous 2 chapters?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Nope not born of flesh from the mother, Christ said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and we know the flesh is corrupt and fallen and has no place in God's kingdom, This is why we will be given new bodies upon the reresection. Therefore an earthly birth does not qualify.

So what could water be? Maybe it has to do with the previous 2 chapters?
Its an interesting study . Let's look at whats clear on how we saved though within the epistles to the Church .
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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Its an interesting study . Let's look at whats clear on how we saved though within the epistles to the Church .
Was not Pauls message the same as Christ?

If yes, why do you run from what Christ says? I give you verses from Christ and you want to go to Paul instead... And these verses from Paul say Baptism, and you claim baptism is not water, so I bring you back to the book of John to see what Baptism could possibly mean, and you want to run back to paul?

Does this not shock you?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Nope not born of flesh from the mother, Christ said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and we know the flesh is corrupt and fallen and has no place in God's kingdom, This is why we will be given new bodies upon the reresection. Therefore an earthly birth does not qualify.

So what could water be? Maybe it has to do with the previous 2 chapters?
In order to be born again . Enter a womb a second time ? No that which is flesh is flesh . There needs to be a spiritual change.
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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In order to be born again . Enter a womb a second time ? No that which is flesh is flesh . There needs to be a spiritual change.
All men are born from the womb, there is no significance in stating that you must be born to be saved.... That is equivalent of saying you must breathe to stay alive.

Christ is not a rhetorician, water means something ;) and Christ said it's not of the flesh.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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Was not Pauls message the same as Christ?

If yes, why do you run from what Christ says? I give you verses from Christ and you want to go to Paul instead... And these verses from Paul say Baptism, and you claim baptism is not water, so I bring you back to the book of John to see what Baptism could possibly mean, and you want to run back to paul?

Does this not shock you?
Don't you think within the main doctrines for the body of Christ it would labour on a major requirement of salvation? Yet in 13 epistles we would never know. This should shock you . But I see you ignore Paul.
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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Don't you think within the main doctrines for the body of Christ it would labour on a major requirement of salvation? Yet in 13 epistles we would never know. This should shock you . But I see you ignore Paul.
Paul talks about baptism a lot. We both agree on this.

The issue here is what does baptism mean, hence why we are in John.

If I define baptism as "being filled with pride", I can interpret the scriptures how ever I want. God knows this, so He defines the worlds for us. So where in the bible is baptism defined?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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All men are born from the womb, there is no significance in stating that you must be born to be saved.... That is equivalent of saying you must breathe to stay alive.

Christ is not a rhetorician, water means something ;) and Christ said it's not of the flesh.
A rabbi would have assumed his birth, credentials, status , ect would suffice. Jesus is saying you need to be born AGAIN .
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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A rabbi would have assumed his birth, credentials, status , ect would suffice. Jesus is saying you need to be born AGAIN .
and Nic. responded, how can I go into my mothers womb, and Christ said that was silly, that he needed to be born of water and spirit.


https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=baptize&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G907&t=KJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G911&t=KJV

That is BLB it is fantastic for finding where words are used and how.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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Paul talks about baptism a lot. We both agree on this.

The issue here is what does baptism mean, hence why we are in John.

If I define baptism as "being filled with pride", I can interpret the scriptures how ever I want. God knows this, so He defines the worlds for us. So where in the bible is baptism defined?
You could never come away from reading Paul that its necessary to have water to be saved .Thats a major problem .
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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You could never come away from reading Paul that its necessary to have water to be saved .
If you knew what baptism meant, you easily could, Thank God He defined it for us :)

Provided in the links I sent earlier.

And if you only read Paul you would not know what the Law was in full, nor what all the prophecies of Christ were, nor the creation of the earth, nor would you know of the end of the earth... Thank God Paul is not God, we would miss A LOT....
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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and Nic. responded, how can I go into my mothers womb, and Christ said that was silly, that he needed to be born of water and spirit.


https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=baptize&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G907&t=KJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G911&t=KJV

That is BLB it is fantastic for finding where words are used and how.
The bible is the best resource.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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and Nic. responded, how can I go into my mothers womb, and Christ said that was silly, that he needed to be born of water and spirit.


https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=baptize&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G907&t=KJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G911&t=KJV

That is BLB it is fantastic for finding where words are used and how.
All this is interesting but 13 epistles and no mention of water saving is major .
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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The bible is the best resource.
Agreed, that is why I linked you the bible. :)

I am off to bed we can continue this later. Hopefully you discover what baptism means, and is.

Spoiler, Christ tells you :)

And Paul's message is no different than Christ's
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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Agreed, that is why I linked you the bible. :)

I am off to bed we can continue this later. Hopefully you discover what baptism means, and is.

Spoiler, Christ tells you :)

And Paul's message is no different than Christ's
It is if you compare . Jesus preached to Israel.