Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Truth7t7

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#101
May 19, 2020
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#101
ewq1938 said:
The 2W are present during the entire tribulation. They are dead for the last 3.5 days of the trib and will resurrect and rise into heaven the same day Christ will return which means the trib ends and the time of God's wrath begins.
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The final hour of earth's temptation, the (Little Moment)

The Church is instructed to enter their dwelling and shut the door, until the indignation be past, just like the Hebrews in Egypt and the passover, as the Second Coming, resurrection, and final judgement of all takes place, in the twinkling of an eye!

Isaiah 26:19-21KJV
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 
T

TheWaytoGo

Guest
#102
#102
Scribe said:
There is a prophecy of the Great Tribulation which is the same as the Day of His Wrath (Zech 1) and this is not the same as tribulation that all christians must be prepared to go through to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Great Tribulation of Revelation is repeatedly called the wrath of God in Revelation.


Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Zeph 1: 14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Rev 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:10
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 14:19
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 15:1 1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

7And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Therefore many Post Tribulation Rapture proponents suggest that there will be some kind of supernatural protection upon saints during this time so that it cannot be said that they perish under the wrath of God. They use the story of the plagues of Egypt as support and also this passage about the servants of the Lord being sealed in Revelation.

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

But then only 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are sealed and so the question becomes are they really only Jews or is it symbolic representation of all the redeemed? And who's guess is correct?

Maybe saints are being divinely protected from wrath like the hail stones but not being protected from persecution or martyrdom. I don't know, it gets confusing as to how they die by the multitudes from the Antichirst but no one dies from the wrath of the Lamb.

At least most Post Tribulation Rapture proponents do not believe that the saints receive the wrath judgments along with the wicked. How that plays out is not very clear.
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Judgment is not God's Wrath. There is one more "wrath" verse in Revelation. The Father gives power to Satan to exercise all his wrath to show the earth His displeasure with us. (We can look at Job to see Satan's powers when God allows him).

Rev 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."​

Rev_6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.​
​
Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

(If God is pouring out His wrath during the 7 years, why is He only killing His Children, and leaving the evil ones taking the Mark unharmed? His Wrath always destroys everything in its path)?

Revelation is not chronological - John's different views of the end times appear in Chapters 6, 8, 10, 11, 14, 16, 18, 19. After the 7th Trumpet sounds at the end of the 7 years, then His wrath is poured out just like in the days of Lot.

Replacing the name "Lot" below with "the Church" and replacing "Sodom" with "the earth" we get a complete picture of His Second Coming), the Rapture of all the Elect, followed immediately by His Wrath destroying the earth for the last time - all on the same day:​

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot [the church] went out of Sodom [the earth] it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ​

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​
​
​
 
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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#103
Aug 3, 2018
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#103
KingdomBrat said:
What Power will the 2 Witnesses have? The Power from the Holy Spirit inside them. They will be here until Midpoint. That means the Holy Spirit is on Earth for the first half of the Tribulation. If the Holy Spirit is here and the 2 witnesses are here, why does this exclude Believers from being here in at least the first half of Tribulation?
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I disagree, and here's why.

The "2W's 1260 days" STRADDLE the two halves.

The MID-point (of the 7-trib-yrs) is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" (not at the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe," as some suppose).

The "2W" ascend up in to heaven at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (the END of their "1260 days" of testimony), at a time-slot distinct from all others.



I do not believe it is the case that the Holy Spirit is entirely absent from the earth during the trib yrs (or even just the SECOND HALF); it's that His "RESTRAINING ROLE" is removed/lifted (and that is at the START of the 7-trib yrs [2Th2:8a,9a], not at its MID-point [2Th2:4], as many suppose. ;) )
 
cv5

cv5

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#104
Nov 20, 2018
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#104
ewq1938 said:
The 2W are present during the entire tribulation. They are dead for the last 3.5 days of the trib and will resurrect and rise into heaven the same day Christ will return which means the trib ends and the time of God's wrath begins.
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My dear friend you are mightily confused. You might want to hit the books and come back in a few months.
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#105
Oct 19, 2020
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#105
My point being is the Holy Spirit is on earth during Tribulation. Why can't Believers be on Earth since the Power of God is present?
 
T

Truth7t7

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#106
May 19, 2020
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#106
TheWaytoGo said:
(If God is pouring out His wrath during the 7 years, why is He only killing His Children, and leaving the evil ones taking the Mark unharmed? His Wrath always destroys everything in its path)?

Revelation is not chronological - John's different views of the end times appear in Chapters 6, 8, 10, 11, 14, 16, 18, 19. After the 7th Trumpet sounds at the end of the 7 years, then His wrath is poured out just like in the days of Lot.

Replacing the name "Lot" below with "the Church" and replacing "Sodom" with "the earth" we get a complete picture of His Second Coming), the Rapture of all the Elect, followed immediately by His Wrath destroying the earth for the last time - all on the same day:​

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot [the church] went out of Sodom [the earth] it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ​

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​
​
​
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I disagree, you have saved believers being killed by God's wrath, (False)

The unsaved world's judged, not the sealed church on earth, that is protected from Gods judgement as seen below in Rev 9:4, only those that don't have Gods seal of the Holy Spirit will be judged by the plagues/wrath, (Fact)

All believers in Jesus Christ are (Sealed) by the Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 9:2-6KJV
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 
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TheWaytoGo

Guest
#107
#107
cv5 said:
I will add further Scriptures as the thread progresses. There are some interesting OT verses that hint at the Rapture.

https://barrysetterfield.org/Rapture.html

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us FROM the wrath to come.

2 Thess 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
and to give YOU who are troubled REST with us WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance (which is the purpose of the GT......a purpose not accorded to the Bride) on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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The meaning in English of the word "remain" (below), as originally written in the Greek, is "survive". Those who survive a great cataclysm, will be the ones remaining.

1Th_4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain [survive] unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.​
​
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain [survive] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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#108
Aug 3, 2018
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#108
Lucy-Pevensie said:
Basic deliniations:
Thymos – sudden passionate anger; anger boiling up then subsiding,
Orge – deliberate anger; hostile vengeance
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In Ezekiel 38:18-19 (in what I've stated before pertains to the "2nd Seal WARS" *early* in the trib years), the LXX uses the word "thymos/thumos [G2372]" in v.18... which in the kjv is translated "[My] fury"... but in v.19 uses the word "orge [G3709]" translated "[My] wrath" (kjv)... so BOTH words apply at that point in time, in the chronology.




Compare the wording between this passage, below, with that of the SEALS of Rev6 (aka "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" [INCLUDING v.11 of Lk21!! "11 There will be great earthquakes, famines, and pestilences in various places, along with fearful sights and great signs from heaven"]) EARLY in/at the START of the 7 trib years:

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother [see Rev6:4]. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.



The SEALS are in the FIRST PART of the 7-yr Trib (not near the END of it), and are EQUIVALENT to "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" - Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 (there will be MANY MORE "birth PANGS" following on from these, before the Trib yrs will END).


[all of the above ^ FOLLOWS "our Rapture"]
 
Blade

Blade

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#109
Nov 19, 2019
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#109
I do find it hard to say anything when one can't just disagree. I know men women of God that have studied this for so many years that never once talk like this "Pre-trib rapture, Better known as (Fake News)". Not limited to just pre same happens with mid and post. Why? Because no one has a verse for pre/ mid nor post trib. So in threads like this why post anything? How do you talk to a wall? <--we hear " a you know your talking to a wall right?" :)

Me I believe whats written and to many times things have to be added to pre, mid, post that is not written. So Jesus said where He was going and what He was going to be doing and would come back for them. Now He can't lie so I read it and He spoke of things happening in the future for Jewish people not Christians asked Him about what would happen. Side note I always say about Caught up I live in the moment He gave me. HAHA as I was trying guess what song is playing? "Keep Me In The Moment" Jeremy Camp.

Just things I can't get past. Well I have all power authority over Satan fallen angels and demons. And my Father will never give Satan power over Himself. Well He is in me. He said I have you all authority. Greater is HE that is in YOU then he thats in the world. Yeah.. if I was still here I could bind that which is now out in the open in JESUS name and he has to obey. He has to bow to the Christ the GOD in you. For me I read about the Fathers wrath that is coming on the world not just a few cities this time. lot "as long as you are here I can do nothing" . A lot was not a Christian yet was righteous and had to be gone. So now to get around that..its not wrath its judgement.... some say. Not what the OT says. And then the more I read its as if that which was will be again. Well before Christ Satan could do lying wonders yet now he can't. Seems something has the power to keep him back. Hmm so only after the restrainer is gone then and only then will he come out in the open and also be given power over the saints? God gives him power over himself? Well if we are still here then thats what God will have to do.

A Christ is not leaving me nor will the sweet holy Spirit ever leave me. And Satan will never have power over the holy Spirit in me. See some things I said here are not written. So this is where must no matter what I personally believe... I am in JESUS name willing can be wrong.. "Father if I am wrong tell me I will repent get it right". So I know He is in me I know I am to be watching ready for His return. So I live for Him in the moment He gave me. I have faith now ...now is when He will come. I will always be ready.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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#110
Oct 18, 2018
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#110
Blade said:
Because no one has a verse for pre/ mid nor post trib.
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There are verses that prove the rapture is post-trib. As long as we agree that Christ returns after the trib then we have scripture placing the rapture after the second coming begins:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the trib.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference)in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (another way to speak of the Rapture)from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#111
Nov 20, 2018
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#111
TheWaytoGo said:
Judgment is not God's Wrath. There is one more "wrath" verse in Revelation. The Father gives power to Satan to exercise all his wrath to show the earth His displeasure with us. (We can look at Job to see Satan's powers when God allows him).

Rev 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."​

Rev_6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.​
​
Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

(If God is pouring out His wrath during the 7 years, why is He only killing His Children, and leaving the evil ones taking the Mark unharmed? His Wrath always destroys everything in its path)?

Revelation is not chronological - John's different views of the end times appear in Chapters 6, 8, 10, 11, 14, 16, 18, 19. After the 7th Trumpet sounds at the end of the 7 years, then His wrath is poured out just like in the days of Lot.

Replacing the name "Lot" below with "the Church" and replacing "Sodom" with "the earth" we get a complete picture of His Second Coming), the Rapture of all the Elect, followed immediately by His Wrath destroying the earth for the last time - all on the same day:​

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot [the church] went out of Sodom [the earth] it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ​

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​
​
​
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Some people say that it is not chronological. However the truth is that chapters 10 through 14 are "summary" chapters. A careful analysis yields the fact that they are a parenthesis between the sixth and seventh trumpet.

One must understand that "Jewish" Holy Spirit inspired Prophetic writings are many times PATTERNS. One must abandon the Greek Western train of thought and modify your perspective.

Revelation is laid out in a hepatitic structure.
Six seals - a pause (all of ch 7 (a summary)) - then the seventh.
Six trumpets - a pause (chapters 10 through 14) - then the seventh.
Six bowls - a pause - (only four verses Rev 16:13-16) - then the seventh.

Tragically so many people on this thread mistakenly quote Matthew 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21 as if they have anything whatsoever to do with the Church. THEY DO NOT! They have reference to the Daniel chapter 9 prophecy......with the exception that ONLY Luke 21 firstly speaks to the 70 A.D. destruction....THEN once more telescopes to the far future to Daniel 70th week as well. The Church is nowhere to be found in these three chapters. Why? Because they reference Daniels 70th week aka the time of Jacob's trouble.

The Daniel ch 9 prophecy is applicable ONLY to his people ("For your people and for your holy city")....Israelites. Not to the Church.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#112
Nov 20, 2018
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#112
ewq1938 said:
There are verses that prove the rapture is post-trib. As long as we agree that Christ returns after the trib then we have scripture placing the rapture after the second coming begins:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the trib.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference)in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (another way to speak of the Rapture)from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages.
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Time for you to hit the books my friend. The Church is absolutely nowhere to be found in Matthew 24.

The pretrib rapture doctrine is boilerplate IMO. I really cannot understand how anybody could possibly be confused about it. It's there and it's emphasized amplified & repeated multiple times.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#113
Aug 3, 2018
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#113
KingdomBrat said:
My point being is the Holy Spirit is on earth during Tribulation. Why can't Believers be on Earth since the Power of God is present?
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The pre-trib position/doctrine is NOT saying there will not be "believers" on the earth during the Tribulation.

The pre-trib position/doctrine is saying that the "believers" who will be existing on the earth during the Tribulation period will be those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture [in the air]"


(...which "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church which is His body" i.e. ALL those saved "in this present age [singular],"... The "Rapture" event does NOT pertain to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)





[again, Rev5:9 has the 24 elders (UP IN Heaven) saying, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation"... BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened at the START of the Trib yrs ;) (comp. with Rev1:5-6 "us" 3x)]
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#114
#114
TheWaytoGo said:
Judgment is not God's Wrath. There is one more "wrath" verse in Revelation. The Father gives power to Satan to exercise all his wrath to show the earth His displeasure with us. (We can look at Job to see Satan's powers when God allows him).

Rev 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."​

Rev_6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.​
​
Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

(If God is pouring out His wrath during the 7 years, why is He only killing His Children, and leaving the evil ones taking the Mark unharmed? His Wrath always destroys everything in its path)?

Revelation is not chronological - John's different views of the end times appear in Chapters 6, 8, 10, 11, 14, 16, 18, 19. After the 7th Trumpet sounds at the end of the 7 years, then His wrath is poured out just like in the days of Lot.

Replacing the name "Lot" below with "the Church" and replacing "Sodom" with "the earth" we get a complete picture of His Second Coming), the Rapture of all the Elect, followed immediately by His Wrath destroying the earth for the last time - all on the same day:​

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot [the church] went out of Sodom [the earth] it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ​

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​
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I am not sure if I should even respond. You never know if you're helping someone or just arguing. I have no desire to argue. Judgment from God upon the wicked is certainly the wrath of God. Why would you think it was not?

In just one example we have Rev 9 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

Revelation 8:11, NIV: "the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."

Many other examples as you read through.

Why would you think that only those who are killed for not taking the mark are the ones being killed? Have you carefully read Revelation at least 3 times?

I have no idea what you are suggesting. These judgments are the wrath of God and the repeated references make it impossible for anyone to change that interpretation. I won't even argue the point. It's silly. It's not being honest.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#115
Nov 20, 2018
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#115
TheDivineWatermark said:
I disagree, and here's why.

The "2W's 1260 days" STRADDLE the two halves.

The MID-point (of the 7-trib-yrs) is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" (not at the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe," as some suppose).

The "2W" ascend up in to heaven at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (the END of their "1260 days" of testimony), at a time-slot distinct from all others.



I do not believe it is the case that the Holy Spirit is entirely absent from the earth during the trib yrs (or even just the SECOND HALF); it's that His "RESTRAINING ROLE" is removed/lifted (and that is at the START of the 7-trib yrs [2Th2:8a,9a], not at its MID-point [2Th2:4], as many suppose. ;) )
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Can you please elaborate on the midpoint being 5th trumpet/1st woe?
Thank you.
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
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Oct 19, 2020
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#116
TheDivineWatermark said:
The pre-trib position/doctrine is NOT saying there will not be "believers" on the earth during the Tribulation.

The pre-trib position/doctrine is saying that the "believers" who will be existing on the earth during the Tribulation period will be those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture [in the air]"


(...which "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church which is His body" i.e. ALL those saved "in this present age [singular],"... The "Rapture" event does NOT pertain to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)





[again, Rev5:9 has the 24 elders (UP IN Heaven) saying, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation"... BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened at the START of the Trib yrs ;) (comp. with Rev1:5-6 "us" 3x)]
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That's quite a bit to assume. But Luke gives all indication of Post Trib.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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#117
ewq1938 said:
There are verses that prove the rapture is post-trib. As long as we agree that Christ returns after the trib then we have scripture placing the rapture after the second coming begins:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib.

It's that simple.
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We're so glad that you cleared that all up for us. Your error is that you, like so many others, do not recognize the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events.

By putting the gathering of the church as taking place at the second coming, you ignore the fact that you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God. And that's the big problem! God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son and therefore we are not appointed to suffer it.

In regards to you having the church gathered when the Lord returns to end age, Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride/church already in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb. Then Verse 14 shows the bride wearing her fine linen, white and clean, which she receives at the wedding, following the Lord out of heaven to end the age. Revelation 17:14 also echo's this teaching stating that as the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age and confront the beast and the kings of the earth, with Him will be His 'called, chosen and faithful followers.

"For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

The armies of heaven following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and will be wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she received at the wedding of the Lamb.

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the trib.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference)in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (another way to speak of the Rapture)from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages.
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First of all, angels don't gather the dead in Christ when the dead are resurrected and the living who will be changed and caught up. They will rise under their own power, when the voice of the Lord which sounds like a trumpets says, 'Come up here.'

And second, the angels will be gathering the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God. In Matt.24:31 angels will be gathering living people from all over the earth. That is not a reference to the gathering of the church, but to the great tribulation saints and Israel. It is these two groups who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

In addition, Jesus said that He would keep us out of that hour of testing, not through or in it, but He will keep us out of it. Other translations have 'kept from the hour of trial' which also works.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#118
May 19, 2020
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#118
Scribe said:
I am not sure if I should even respond. You never know if you're helping someone or just arguing. I have no desire to argue. Judgment from God upon the wicked is certainly the wrath of God. Why would you think it was not?

In just one example we have Rev 9 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

Revelation 8:11, NIV: "the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."

Many other examples as you read through.

Why would you think that only those who are killed for not taking the mark are the ones being killed? Have you carefully read Revelation at least 3 times?

I have no idea what you are suggesting. These judgments are the wrath of God and the repeated references make it impossible for anyone to change that interpretation. I won't even argue the point. It's silly. It's not being honest.
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You also falsely suggest the righteous are killed, judged, with the wicked (False)

The (Two Witnesses) bring the plagues seen in Revelation, it will be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the Hebrews were protected, just as the (Sealed) Church on earth will be protected.

The unsaved world's judged, not the sealed church on earth, that is protected from Gods judgement as seen below in Rev 9:4, only those that don't have Gods seal of the Holy Spirit will be judged by the plagues/wrath, (Fact)

All believers in Jesus Christ are (Sealed) by the Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 11:6KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 9:2-6KJV
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 
cv5

cv5

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#119
TheWaytoGo said:
The meaning in English of the word "remain" (below), as originally written in the Greek, is "survive". Those who survive a great cataclysm, will be the ones remaining.

1Th_4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain [survive] unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.​
​
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain [survive] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​
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This business about Christians going thru wrath is completely misplaced and a serious misapprehension of the clear teaching of Scripture. Read and reread the context into which these Scriptures are placed. Over and over again the pattern is wait for the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.....so that we may experience comfort, rest relief. And be safely delivered FROM wrath. There is never the slightest nuance or merest hint that any Christian will ever see God's wrath when He unleashes the Tribulation.

1 Thess 4:18
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thess 5:9,11
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

2 Thess 1:7
and to give you who are troubled rest with us WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

2 Thess 2:2
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Certainly Paul taught the Thessalonians that they would NOT go through the Tribulation or suffer the Wrath of God. The "fake news" letter had them questioning this doctrine. Paul then reaffirms what he had taught them earlier.....that they will NOT suffer wrath....on the contrary they will get rest and comfort. IT IS THE ENEMIES OF CHRIST JESUS who are appointed to wrath.

I am at a loss to understand why everyone fails to see the obvious.
 
S

Scribe

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#120
I would not be surprised if half of those who think they have it figured out have no oil in their lamps.
 
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