Not a Salvation Issue / Not Required for Salvation

Hello Adstar

How do you know if something someone is saying is guided by the Holy Spirit? Is it when it is appealing to you?

The purpose of the bible is to tell us the truth, and not to tell us what we want to hear. I do not believe in choosing to believe certain parts of scripture and ignoring the rest because it does not appeal to me.

Well when someone is declaring that the Atonement of the LORD Jesus is not enough to save then i know that that person is not guided by the Holy Spirit and is in denial of the Gospel message that saves..

Well, the Spirit tells me that the "good news" in the Gospel is this: Christ was not sent primarily to teach and set an example, but to be the unblemished holy lamb of sacrifice from God to all his children. Every single last one. Christ was sent to save with power all who God adopts.
The good news is that God loved me so very much that he decided that it would be alright with him for me to spend eternity in his awesome presence. Not for anything I did, or will do, but because he loved(s) me , my imperfect self perfectly.
I am free of death and sin because my blessed awesome powerful daddy deemed it so. I am free to wake up and love my daddy imperfectly, and worship and serve him with precise imperfection too, but his loving grace and will keeps me perfect in Christ, and I can't be grateful enough for that.
See, the Spirit my daddy gave me reassures me that I am weak, finite, sin laden, and imperfect, so dad covers me with his perfection for the pleasing of his own will.
My Spirit tells me to NEVER lean on my own understanding, but in ALL WAYS acknowledge God for the good news is HE'S GOT THIS!!!
KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL MAKE YOU FREE!!!

Hello Adstar

I agree that the atonement is enough to save. But what does Jesus save us from, does He save us from our sins or does he save us from going to hell? I will give you a clue. The answer is found in Matthew 1:21

Let us look at some of things that Jesus said that about how to get eternal life and enter the Kingdom of God and what can cause you to be excluded.

John 528-:29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 7:13 -14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mark 12:32-34
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

These bible verses from Christ indicate that going to heaven starts with getting saved, but it does not end there. You need to change. You cannot get saved and still live and behave like a heathen. Being a Christian and going to heaven is hard, but we need not despair because God has promised to help us and there are many bible verses that state this and gives us encouragement.

Or you do you believe that we should ignore the above bible verses from Christ and dismiss them as “works salvation” as well?

This was illustrated in Matthew when Jesus was crucified.

When the curtain of the temple was split and Christ died as a human it is explained in Matthew what happened to all the saints who were asleep in the Lord. Matt. 27: 51-53 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Now, we are not asleep when we pass away, but go directly to be with Jesus, as the man who was crucified with Jesus was.

So you believe salvation is::

Believing in the Atonement of Jesus + becoming a good sinless person = Slavation..

As for the verse lets take the first one..

John 528-:29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Do unbelieing sinners also do good works? Yes.. i have dealt with some athiests who have given charity and they have loved their children.. Now why will they be damned? Because their sins have not been covered by the Blood of the Atonement of Jesus..

Do Christians who sin also do good works? Yes But you see the sinning Christian will have their sins covered by the Blood of Jesus thus they will appear before the LORD on the day of Judgement and only their good works shall be revealed .. Their sins shall be covered ..

So the above verse must be read in correlation to the Atonement of the LORD Jesus.. Christians do good works anyone who is saved will do good works .. Some more and they will be called Greater in the kingdom of Heaven and some lesser and these will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.. But greater or lesser they will both be saved because they will have no sins on the last day..

the most authoritative way to answer both questions is to build from what Jesus said about salvation and eternal life. If one does this, you will see Peter, Paul, John line up to what Jesus said about HE as the only way for salvation and NO other way.

This is again a lengthy preaching about this subject of being saved and about salvation for Christians. And I am sharing this video below here because I thought this preaching was relevant to the discussion all of us are having here. If we are Christians, then we are the chosen of God to inherit in His Kingdom. Our sins are forgiven. But we have to fight the good fight. And as Paul says in the Bible, it is good to exhort one another so that we bring ourselves closer to God. No one needs to go through the entire preaching but if you do, it may be to some benefit for you all. Even if you don't go through the video, it's understandable. It all depends on the time we have for it.


@Godcares thank you for starting this thread and having this discussion. It reminds me of the path I should be on in my life and the desired destination that I should aim to achieve at the end of my life. In this world which often takes us far away from God everyday as we are connected with the world, we do need to remember that we are God's children and we have to check if we are going the right way and pleasing God with the way we live our lives. If we are not, then we have to take action and think towards what we are doing and what God expects us to do. What God expects us is to take up our cross and follow Him. Everyday.

This is definitely a conversation which we must all have as Christians. And not just have but go and implement into action in our lives so that we can live a good Christian life as God would want of us. Free from sin. If not completely then at least get the satisfaction of putting up the fight everyday that is necessary for us to stay from sin.

It's not easy. The devil is going to fight with us everyday to make us fall into sin and that is all he does. He is the adversary. However Christ has overcome all sins and paid the price for us.

We as Christians often forget about Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. He does not condemn us for our sins. But He wants us to repent and not sin again. Not return to our sins. That should be our goal. That's what God wants. That's what He expects. It's not okay to lead a sinful life where we don't even try to change from what we do wrong in our lives. Everyone's got their own skeletons in their cupboards. We just have to confess what it is and not sin again. Whom to confess? It can be a friend or a fellow believer, your preacher, family. That's how we work our way towards salvation. What Jesus wants for us is to let go of our sins. Not hold on to them and expect mercy from Him. Sure, He will give all of us all the opportunities to come back to Him. But how many of those invitations do we take and how far do we work towards saving ourselves? This is a much needed conversation which we are all having. It's good that we are talking about this. Hope this helps us in our lives individually to journey closer with God in our lives.

The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1-11)
8 Then everyone went home, but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early the next morning he went back to the Temple. All the people gathered around him, and he sat down and began to teach them. 3 The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees brought in a woman who had been caught committing adultery, and they made her stand before them all. 4 “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. 5 In our Law Moses commanded that such a woman must be stoned to death. Now, what do you say?” 6 They said this to trap Jesus, so that they could accuse him. But he bent over and wrote on the ground with his finger. 7 As they stood there asking him questions, he straightened up and said to them, “Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her.” 8 Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard this, they all left, one by one, the older ones first. Jesus was left alone, with the woman still standing there. 10 He straightened up and said to her, “Where are they? Is there no one left to condemn you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she answered.
“Well, then,” Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, but do not sin again.”

By sin, the sin needn't necessarily be adultery. It could be something small which someone steals thinking that it is not going to be missed by the owner. Any sin.

I feel there is a lot of God's Holy Spirit in this thread. Stay blessed everyone and may God be with each and everyone of you every step of the way.

Hello Blik

John 5:28-29 does not relate to Matthew 27:51-53, but relates to Revelation 20:4-15 and Acts 24:15 which are events that are still to happen.

You will need to read the verses before and after John 5:28-29 to be identify what it relates to.

John 5:25-30
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:25-30, Revelation 20:4-15 and Acts 24:15 explain the following:

• That there are two resurrections that will happen; the first resurrection is of those who are good and just. There is a second resurrection of those who are evil and unjust.
• Those who are good will get eternal life and those who are evil will get eternal damnation. Revelation 20:15 says that the evil will be cast into the lake of fire.
• There is going to be a judgement and Jesus is the judge. Judgement day is going to happen towards the end of the world. It did not happen when Jesus was resurrected.

In Matthew 27:51-53 the following can be identified:

• The people in these verses were resurrected and went to the holy city.
• There is no mention of them being judged.
• There is no mention of them getting eternal life. They probably did since they are holy. However, the bible actually does not mention what happened to them afterwards.
• There is no mention of the evil being resurrected and also being judged.

Hello Adstar

The is no point in continuing further with this conversation with you. I have given you many bible verses and you have decided to ignore them. You pick and choose which bible verses suit you and ignore the rest.

You remind me of the people mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that says, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Sadly the Grace of God is rarely accepted by works salvation preachers who come in here to push the salvation is by Law doing line.. But resisting them does give others who are reading along a chance to see that their doctrines are denying the sufficency of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ. Thus saving those people from falling into the Works salvation trap that leads people to disblieve in the sufficency of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus..

You remind me of people mentioned in Matthew 23..

Matthew 23: KJV
27 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. {28} Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

No matter how hard you try to scrub yourself clean no matter how hard you try to white wash yourself you will Never achieve judtification by works.. To God all our rightoiusness are as filthy rags.. remember that..

Isaiah 64: KJV
6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Hello Adstar

Like I said previously, there is no point in continuing in our conversation further, because you refuse to listen certain parts of the bible because they do not appeal to you. I even quoted you many bible verses said by Christ. I can quote half the bible to you and you will refuse to listen because you do not want to obey God. Calling me a Pharisee will not change what the bible says.

Romans 8:7 says, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Your bible verse of Isaiah 64 does not make sense because as I said previously, God will help you to do his will and I said that there many promises in the bible verses that state this. There is no where in my posts where I said that you can achieve righteousness on your own. If you are going to respond to my posts at least read my posts properly, instead of making things up and accusing me of saying things that I did not say.

Frankly, all these explanations and analysis of scripture is just not something I am going to do. I wonder if you have quietly listened to the Holy Spirit?

In the old testament, it doers not speak of going to heaven or being alive after earthly death. It does speak of grace and forgiveness of sin. In Matthews it speaks of these people who have been forgiven and been accepted with grace as becoming alive. Jesus told the man who was crucified with Him he would be with him at his earthly death. That is what scripture tells me, it is what I believe. I completely trust the Lord with how He will accomplish this.

yabba dabba doooooooo

Hello Blik

I do not understand why you are responding to the post if you do not want to read and analyze the bible verses that I gave to you.

You said that John 5:28-29 relates to Matthew 27:51-53 and I have told you that you are incorrect and gave you reasons why. You have decided that you do not want to analyze Revelation 20:4-15 and Acts 24:15 and compare it to John 5:28-29.
I suspect that you not wanting to analyze the bible verses is because of pride and do not want to face the fact that you are wrong.

Your question about whether I am listening to the Holy Spirit which implies that you believe that anyone who does not agree with you is not filled with the Holy Spirit.

- How do you know whether or not I am listening to the Holy Spirit when you refuse to read the scripture which was inspired by God? I read the bible and provide reasons for what I believe which are based on the bible, yet you question whether I have the Holy Spirit, while you on the other hand do not want to read the bible. Who is more Holy Spirit filled? The one who reads God’s word or the one who does not want to?
- You misinterpreted John 5:28-29 and believe that it relates to Matthew 27:51-53 when it does not.
John 16:13 says, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
The Holy Spirit gives you the correct interpretation of scripture and guides to all truth. Clearly based on John 16:13 your interpretation of John 5:28-29 was not guided by the Holy Spirit. Instead of you asking me whether I am listening to the Holy Spirit, I should be asking you whether you have been listening to the Holy Spirit since you interpret scripture incorrectly.

2 Timothy 2:15 says, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

I choose to study the word of God as stated in the bible. If you do not want to study, then it is impossible for you to provide a Holy Spirit inspired answered to any question. The Holy Spirit will never deviate from the bible and will always be in agreement with what the bible says because God inspired the bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

You need to follow the example of the people from Berea who were regarded as noble because they searched the scriptures daily to find out whether what was said was true or not.

-Acts 17:11 says “And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

I said previously, God will help you to do his will and I said that there many promises in the bible verses that state this.

Click to expand...

So are you are claiming that God has helped you live by His will so that you never fail to live up to His will?

If you ever fail and sin..
If you ever fail to do a good deed you know you should have done..
Your doctrine is a lie and a stumbling stone you are placing in the Way of others who will believe your doctrine..

Yes i have quoted what you said.. Bolded it and underlined it in the quote.. This is the doctrine you put forward.. A doctrine that is false..

Luke 6:46 46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

It's a standard teaching of Jesus, so obedience or the lack of it is an issue.

If we believe that Jesus is our Savior, Jesus must be the Lord of all in our lives. Everything He taught is an issue, otherwise He wouldn't have said it.

I hope that helps.

When the bible puts conditions, such as the word “if” followed by words that equal salvation- then you know that’s a salvation issue. But in the example of the weaker vegetarian brother, He said not to mess up his conscience because he is doing it for God, and it’s not hurting anyone else. “Weaker” meaning “less knowledge” because the bible gives examples of even Jesus eating meat, and not to force restrictions on others. So refusing to eat meat is not a salvation issue.

Does God care if we don’t eat meat even though its not a salvation issue? Yeah, if we’re not eating it for what we believe to be religious reasons- because He wants to see us study and grow- for the weaker to become stronger. He cares about our growth.

Hello Adstar

Where in my posts did I say that God helping you will result in you never failing to live up to His will? Now you are accusing me of saying things that I did not say.

If you read the bible you would know that there are promises in the bible that state that God helps you, but you still have a choice. God never forces you to do what you do not want to.
For example, 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”
It is God’s will for us not to sin and in this bible verse, God makes a way of escape of temptation, but it is up to you whether you choose to take that way of escape or not.

The teaching that I have presented is in the bible and I have provided bible verses to substantiate it. It is not my doctrine. It is what the bible says. I have provided more than 25 bible verses in this thread. To say that the doctrine I have spoken is a lie and is false, you are saying what the bible says is a lie and is false.

This mean that you believe that a doctrine is true when there is no bible verse that exists to substantiate it and you believe that a doctrine is false when there are many bible verses to substantiate it.

Like I said before, I can quote half the bible to you and you will refuse to listen because you do not want to obey God and yet want to continue to engage in this conversation. You cannot convince me not to believe the bible, just because you do not believe the bible. If you think that in continuing in this conversation you can convince me to disbelieve the bible, then you are wrong and you are wasting your time.

You think that in your posts you are fighting against me, but you are actually fighting against the bible and you are also fighting against God who inspired the bible. You have ignored the bible verses which I have mentioned in this thread which are inspired by Him. By ignoring these bible verses, you are ignoring God and not me. You are not accountable to me, but you are accountable to God.

and here we are- " you are not fighting against me, you are fighting against God"

when a person sees this kind of non-sense, it is best to ignore the one saying it.

they are just feeding their own ego.....