Not a Salvation Issue / Not Required for Salvation

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear Everyone

Thank you for responses.

However, no one has really answered my questions. Perhaps I should a few give examples.

How can we be certain that not giving to the poor or that not being baptized or how much we eat etc. will not affect our salvation?

Personally, when I read the bible I do not believe that anyone can actually tell that something is not a salvation issue. But, I hear that phrase “this is not a salvation issue” very often and I believe that it is based on personal opinion. However, I open to be corrected.

I think we can tell by Looking to the law

the law required obedience, but it also required perfection.

as Moses said, Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word written.

it is why paul, who quoted Moses words in Gal 3 said by the law will no person be justified, because cursed is the one...

if the law required perfection in every word (remember James said if we keep the whole law and stumble e in one point we are guilty of all). Then how can anyone ever do anything which could save themselves? We are all guilty, all cursed, as paul said, all have sinned (you and me are guilty) and fall short of Gods glory. That’s the standard one must live by

so if we already fall short. How is baptism going to help save us? Will it bring us to where we are now equal or above Gods standard? No, no work whether through the law or the church can save you, help save you or keep you saved, because no matter where you are, you are a sinner who has and continue to fall short,

the only thing which can redeem us is like the law said, the shedding of blood. As the perfect word says, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness,

Jesus fulfilled the law by becoming the lamb of God slaughtered for our sin, so add anything to the cross is to mock God and declair to him

1. You are a liar
2. your death was not enough
3.your gift must be earned, hence it is no gift at all. It is a reward.

as Jesus told nicodemus, the way to be born again is to look at the cross, as the serpent was raised by Moses, so must the son of God be raised, that whoever believed will never perish but has eternal life

whoever believes is not condemned, but whoever does not be,I’ve is condemned already

the way to salvation or hell is not what we do or do not do, it is whether we place our faith in Christ and say yes, or reject Gods offering hence blaspheming the Holy Spirit, by saying no

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, when in Mark 16:16 it says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
You interpret it as saying baptism is part of sanctification and justification?

ypu maybe assume this is water baptism? I hope not,. Because Jesus in John 4 never mentioned the word baptise.we need to make the word complete by agreeing not contradict itself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem with your op is that you are conflating two issues.

We know exactly what salvation is and there is no issue to go with it. There is salvation only through Christ and no amount of works will save a person and adding to salvation is rejected in scripture.

Your question regarding obedience is separate from salvation. A person should hold these two things separate and not cloud salvation with an improper understanding of what that is.

You might think you have cleverly disguised the actual topic here, but it seems most have seen right through your leading questions.

Amen

justification is a one time event

sanctification is an ongoing even which will continue as long as we live, at which time we will be glorified

sadly people want to mix sanctification as a requirement to be justified, when actually it is the other way around

we love (the means of sanctification) because he first loved us (justification through the cross)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not want to discourage you, but at the same time we cannot ignore what the bible says. The following bible verse implies that it is not easy to get saved.

1 Peter 4:18 - “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

And there is also Philippians 2:12 that says, “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

the first verse should scare you

if the righteous (the pharisee and religious person) is scarcely saved, (it is hard for them) where shall the godly and the sinner appear? So the people who are doing all they can to live righteous lives, are scarcely saved. Then this must not be the way to eternal life

and also remember, how do we overcome, we overcome by the blood. not by trying in our power to do good.

as for your second passage, paul is telling them to work out the salvation the have, not to earn.

we all should do this, because the world is watching.t is for their sake not ours

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why are looking at Calvinism to determine what is required for salvation instead of the bible? And what does the KJV version have to do with salvation?

Furthermore, your response is very vague and actually does not answer the questions about the examples that I made. Instead you answered my questions with questions.

You should have either said say Yes, it does affect your salvation or No, it does not affect your salvation and provided a reason for either saying Yes or No. Then if you had said No, you should have said whether it mattered to God whether or not it was obeyed.
The other alternative is to say that you are not certain whether it will affect your salvation or not.

He tried to show you some things which are not salvic in Response to your question about what is not salvic.

did you forget your question?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The reason why you think that I am cleverly disguising the actual topic is because you do not know answer to the questions. If you do not know the answer, they will be difficult questions to answer and you will construe that there is something underhanded about them.

The bible tells us to do a lot of things, but for some subjects it does not clearly define whether or not it can affect our salvation. And I believe that because of this ambiguity, Christians use it as an opportunity to dismiss the obedience of certain things by simply saying “this is not a salvation issue”.

So you think we are saved by works?

how can you think you can earn your salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Firstly, Mark 16:16 says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved…” It does not specify whether it is baptism of the Holy Spirit or water baptism.

Secondly, you said that giving to the poor and baptism and how much we eat relates to sanctification and justification and are not related to salvation. However, salvation and sanctification go together.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says:
“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”

Actually it does not have to

again in John 3 Jesus said the very same thing, yet he never mentioned the word baptism

John 3: 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

No mention of baptism, and no counter view of having to both believe and be baptised (but he who believes yet is not baptized is condemned)

so why would Jesus contradict himself in mark 16?
it is either spirit baptism or as some suggest a later addition to the word

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To be saved we only need to want to live a sinless life. We cannot do that unless we are forgiven of our sins through Christ, knowing Christ is able to do that. That is all that is required. It is salvation through faith.

We are given many ways to live after we are saved. Our salvation means that we have Christ in our hearts and minds. We then look to these things that are of Christ, and make them part of our life. However, these things do not lead to our salvation.

That does not mean that listening to how we are to live is not part of our salvation. We cannot belief in and act on such as drunkenness as a way to live sin free. A requirement of salvation is to want to be sin free, or in scripture terms, repentance.

So we are saved no by faith, but wanting to live a sinless life?

please show this in scripture

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello SophieT

Just because what I am saying does not suit you, it does not mean that it is a different gospel.
The purpose of the bible is to tell us the truth, and not to tell us what we want to hear. I do not believe in choosing to believe certain parts of scripture and ignoring the rest because it does not appeal to me.

You appear to be preaching a gospel of works. That is a different gospel

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello Adstar

I have answered you by making reference to the bible. If you choose not to believe the bible verses presented, then that is your problem not mine.

The pharisee knew the word by heart,

but he did not understand them

just because you post them does not mean you understand them, anyone can post verses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear Everyone

I have read all of your responses to the questions and this is my response

How do you know if something in the bible is a salvation issue?

We all know the popular bible verse which is quoted more than any bible verse about salvation which was written by the apostle Paul:

• Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

But then you have the following bible verses also written by the apostle Paul that speak about people who will be excluded and will not enter the kingdom of God.

• Ephesians 5:5 says, “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
• Galatians 5:21 says, “Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

The bible says all scripture is inspired by God according to 2 Timothy 3:16. Therefore since it is all inspired by God then everything needs to be examined and we cannot ignore certain parts because they are not pleasing to us.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are saved by grace, but Ephesians 5:5, Galatians 5:21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 state that there are certain people will not go to heaven.

This raises a few questions. When you read all of these bible verses written by the apostle Paul:

• Does that mean that we are saved by grace, but there are certain exceptions?
• Or does that mean that we are saved by grace, but can still lose our salvation?
• Or does that mean that we are saved by grace, but being saved does not mean an automatic ticket to heaven and that there has to be a change in your behaviour and character? In other words, are you once saved and always saved, but can still go to hell?

These are puzzling questions. I believe that it is not easy to answer these questions because the bible is not very clear. Hence I asked the question, how do you know something is a salvation issue? Christians who are quick to dismiss something as not being a salvation issue show that they have not considered the entire New Testament of the bible.

At the same time, the bible says that Jesus saves us from our sins (Matthew 1:21), but it does not say Jesus saves us from going to hell. The idea that being saved means that you will automatically go to heaven is an assumption by Christians.

If something is not a salvation issue and is not required for salvation, does that mean that it does not matter to God if it is not obeyed?

There are very few of you who directly answered this question. There are about 2 of you that gave a direct answer that it does matter to God, the rest avoided the question or gave vague answers.

Example 1

Let us look at the example of King Saul in 1 Samuel 15 to answer this question.

King Saul was instructed by God to smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and kill all the men, women, children, ox, sheep, camels and donkeys etc. But King Saul did not obey God completely and spared Agag the king of the Amalekites, and the best animals

In the Old Testament how a person got saved was found in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. King Saul’s disobedience was not a violation of any laws written in these books. Therefore it can be argued that King Saul’s disobedience was not a salvation issue.

However, although he did not break any rules/laws in the book of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy including the 10 commandments, God took King Saul’s disobedience very seriously and the consequences of King Saul’s disobedience were very great.
This act of disobedience resulted in King Saul being rejected by God as king of Israel and resulted in David being anointed as king. In Samuel 28:16 it says that the Lord departed from Saul and the Lord also became his enemy.

Example 2

Let us look at Matthew 25:31-46 to also answer this question.

We will focus on Matthew 25:41-46 that says, “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.”

When you read the entire chapter from verse 31, you will notice that salvation by grace is not considered as an excuse for neglecting those who are poor (hungry, thirsty, naked), sick and imprisoned. In fact because of this neglect, the goats are destined for hell.
They are guilty of violating what is addressed James 2:14-26 that talks about Christians who do not give to the poor and who do not care about others.
James 2:14 says, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” The answer to the question is no when you look at the consequences in Matthew 25:41-46.
In Matthew 25:41-46, like in Ephesians 5:5, Galatians 5:21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, salvation by grace is not used as an excuse for transgression and these Christians did not enter the Kingdom of God.

What the above two examples tells us is that God takes everything seriously. If it is to written in the bible (especially the New Testament), He expects Christians to obey it, whether it is a salvation issue or not.

I sometimes see in the forum a member talking about the obedience of something in the New Testament and then another member quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 or saying it is not a salvation issue to argue against them. Then you see several other members giving this second member many likes.
And I think to myself, how is that a good point that deserves likes. Yes, it is true that we are saved by grace, but if you do not do the thing that the first member has mentioned which is included in the bible, then you will not enter into the kingdom of God and will not get eternal life.

With the Christians that I have interacted with, it looks like some Christians have the mind-set of King Saul as well as Adam and Eve. Thinking that minor things do not matter and that God overlooks certain things.

Yep works based gospel

comes from a lack of understanding of the word. And the law

she thinks she can still be a sinner falling short of Gods glory and through it earn salvation

good luck maam.

it’s sad you appeared to make an honest up wanting to discuss this, then quickly proved it was a bait op.

sad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello Adstar

I agree that the atonement is enough to save. But what does Jesus save us from, does He save us from our sins or does he save us from going to hell? I will give you a clue. The answer is found in Matthew 1:21

Let us look at some of things that Jesus said that about how to get eternal life and enter the Kingdom of God and what can cause you to be excluded.

John 528-:29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 7:13 -14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mark 12:32-34
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

These bible verses from Christ indicate that going to heaven starts with getting saved, but it does not end there. You need to change. You cannot get saved and still live and behave like a heathen. Being a Christian and going to heaven is hard, but we need not despair because God has promised to help us and there are many bible verses that state this and gives us encouragement.

Or you do you believe that we should ignore the above bible verses from Christ and dismiss them as “works salvation” as well?

He saves us from the penalty of sin, that is what justification means

as paul said in collisions, he took all the was against us and nailed it to the cross

as he said, paid in full

yes he saves us also from the power of sin, but that is a lifetime process called sanctification

paul called some in the galations church fools because they believed they were Initially saved by the spirit (faith) but had to perfect that salvation by the flesh (works)

you should take heed to pauls words

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello Adstar

The is no point in continuing further with this conversation with you. I have given you many bible verses and you have decided to ignore them. You pick and choose which bible verses suit you and ignore the rest.

You remind me of the people mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that says, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Ahh, the truth comes out

believe what I say, and you believe the word

reject what I say, and reject the word

typical legalistic proud modern day pharisee attitude,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So are you are claiming that God has helped you live by His will so that you never fail to live up to His will?

If you ever fail and sin..
If you ever fail to do a good deed you know you should have done..
Your doctrine is a lie and a stumbling stone you are placing in the Way of others who will believe your doctrine..

Yes i have quoted what you said.. Bolded it and underlined it in the quote.. This is the doctrine you put forward.. A doctrine that is false..

Amen

as James said, if she keeps the whole law, yet STUMBLE in one point she is guilty

break one of even the smallest commands and BOOM! Your dead,

she pumps her chest why failing to be the tax collector who gets on her knees

who will go home justified?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luke 6:46 46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

It's a standard teaching of Jesus, so obedience or the lack of it is an issue.

If we believe that Jesus is our Savior, Jesus must be the Lord of all in our lives. Everything He taught is an issue, otherwise He wouldn't have said it.

I hope that helps.

Why yes w should strive to love all as commanded

our eternal life is not based on that, because no matter how good we are or become, we will still fall short of Gods glory

 

[jstaservant]

Dear Everyone

Thank you for responses.

However, no one has really answered my questions. Perhaps I should a few give examples.

How can we be certain that not giving to the poor or that not being baptized or how much we eat etc. will not affect our salvation?

Personally, when I read the bible I do not believe that anyone can actually tell that something is not a salvation issue. But, I hear that phrase “this is not a salvation issue” very often and I believe that it is based on personal opinion. However, I open to be corrected.

It's easy to say you believe, but Christ says you will know them by there fruits. A true believer will have a new heart and Christ says I will not lose any that my Father has given me.

 

[JaumeJ]

Dear Everyone

Thank you for responses.

However, no one has really answered my questions. Perhaps I should a few give examples.

How can we be certain that not giving to the poor or that not being baptized or how much we eat etc. will not affect our salvation?

Personally, when I read the bible I do not believe that anyone can actually tell that something is not a salvation issue. But, I hear that phrase “this is not a salvation issue” very often and I believe that it is based on personal opinion. However, I open to be corrected.

No rule, commandment nor law is in effect if it does not contain mercy. I believe our Savior is well aware of which do and which do not.
You will not lose salvation if not baptized, or if you eat something some will not. Walk and act always to our Maker and you will be just fine.

 

[throughfaith]

It's easy to say you believe, but Christ says you will know them by there fruits. A true believer will have a new heart and Christ says I will not lose any that my Father has given me.

Jesus said to the disciples that they would know false prophets by what they taught ( fruits )

 

[Godcares]

and here we are- " you are not fighting against me, you are fighting against God"

when a person sees this kind of non-sense, it is best to ignore the one saying it.

they are just feeding their own ego.....

I am not the author of the Bible and I am not the one who inspired it. God is!

When a person who calls themselves a Christian tries to fight against the bible and ignores and rejects what God says, they are fighting against God since it is His Word. It is not my Word.

And to the person who does not read the bible what I am saying will be nonsense because he does not know God's Word.

 

[Godcares]

I think we can tell by Looking to the law

the law required obedience, but it also required perfection.

as Moses said, Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word written.

it is why paul, who quoted Moses words in Gal 3 said by the law will no person be justified, because cursed is the one...

if the law required perfection in every word (remember James said if we keep the whole law and stumble e in one point we are guilty of all). Then how can anyone ever do anything which could save themselves? We are all guilty, all cursed, as paul said, all have sinned (you and me are guilty) and fall short of Gods glory. That’s the standard one must live by

so if we already fall short. How is baptism going to help save us? Will it bring us to where we are now equal or above Gods standard? No, no work whether through the law or the church can save you, help save you or keep you saved, because no matter where you are, you are a sinner who has and continue to fall short,

the only thing which can redeem us is like the law said, the shedding of blood. As the perfect word says, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness,

Jesus fulfilled the law by becoming the lamb of God slaughtered for our sin, so add anything to the cross is to mock God and declair to him

1. You are a liar
2. your death was not enough
3.your gift must be earned, hence it is no gift at all. It is a reward.

as Jesus told nicodemus, the way to be born again is to look at the cross, as the serpent was raised by Moses, so must the son of God be raised, that whoever believed will never perish but has eternal life

whoever believes is not condemned, but whoever does not be,I’ve is condemned already

the way to salvation or hell is not what we do or do not do, it is whether we place our faith in Christ and say yes, or reject Gods offering hence blaspheming the Holy Spirit, by saying no

You did not answer the questions. If you do not know the answer, then do not address the post because the response you have given does not make sense since it does not address the post.