Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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yes I went with Enoch because it is confirmed in the nt , Elijah I’ve sort of wondered about because there’s never a confirmation that I have found yet . Did the whirlwind not kill him ? I’m not sure I was thinking that also but am still iffy lol

but the term translated

“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:13-14‬ ‭

I always seem to go back to creation he made heaven and earth

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so it makes me think of it in two ways as if there are two realms one heavenly realm and an earthly realm . And we ruined the earthly realm

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6‬ ‭

and we are being saved into the heavenly realm into the kingdom after we pass away , until he returns to earth and restores and makes it new

I think there is two aspects to it all spiritual and physical heaven and earth and all that corresponds to both the spiritual things to the heavens and the physical things to the earth

the earth is cursed and doomed and so are we , but God offered salvation now from death and the afterlife we were headed for
Matthew 28:18KJV
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Colossians 1:16KJV
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Matthew 28:18KJV
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Colossians 1:16KJV
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
yes couldn’t agree more with those scriptures brother
 

Nehemiah6

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I will add further Scriptures as the thread progresses. There are some interesting OT verses that hint at the Rapture.
For those who do not wish to believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, it does not make any difference as to how many verses are posted. They will simply be ignored.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Technically speaking here, Satan is [not] in power till the second half. If this Wrath is during the end of the second half of the Great Tribulation, then Believers in God aren't facing it if they're here in the first half of Tribulation. Interpretation claims we leave [before] wrath. We could very well be Mid Trib Rapture.
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Christ was seated on the throne in heaven Satan was cast out , into the earth to make war with mankind until Christ returns .

This has been Going on for a very long time people say , 1800 years ago , who lived , believed the gospel truly and then die they enter into the kingdom of heaven , but thier time in this world is in a world ruled by the devil and his angels who some people serve thier wicked will.

Satan is a spirit he works through mankind in the world. Spirit isn’t tangible Satan can’t himself pick up a rock and kill someone , but being a deceptive spirit he can give Cain the idea and fuel the anger and jealousy, the motives in the heart and then Cain has to either do what God told him or what Satan suggested , just like Cain it’s all Satan has the power to do convince us to disbelieve and choose his will over Gods

satans influence through man did this

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭

The world is so corrupt because it’s ruled by the enemy until his return from heaven
 

Pilgrimshope

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For those who do not wish to believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, it does not make any difference as to how many verses are posted. They will simply be ignored.
it seems like it should carry weight when jesus the lord says things like this about this subject which originates with what Jesus said in his sermons

“But in those days, after that tribulation,

the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pretty easy to Ignore scripture if it doesn’t actually support your idea huh ?

what’s hard for me to understand is that Jesus in that whole chapter is telling them “ you will go through these tribulations and then afterwards if you keep the faith I will come and gather everyone together “

the idea of the rapture before they go through the tribulation he’s actually teaching them and preparing them for lol and somehow the pre trib idea says nope Jesus is wrong the church isn’t going through the tribulation but read what he’s saying to them

“For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.a

But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:

but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:8-13‬ ‭

It just seems like it’s not a huge debate whether the church is raptured before or after the tribulation he is preparing them to endure . What if we just use what is there ? And you guys just use scripture to show even one that says “ the church will be raptured before the tribulation like this one says after the tribulation ?

o don’t believe there is a single scripture that is like this set of verses that say there is a pre tribulation rapture before the end of the world it bears out to be what it is
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41-43, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a one time event in the end Christ returns

it’s actually the structure for our whole faith Christ coming the first time and returning the second time at the end to gather his people

“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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2/3 of the Jews will be cut off and die, a fact of scripture.

Only the 1/3 chosen Remnant will be saved and added to the church.

Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
I've never denied that. I've already agreed that is what the prophecies indicate earlier.

You aren't bringing anything to the table that proves Jesus' physical millennial reign on earth is false.
You've posted a verse about the chastisement and repentance of The Jewish people.
So why dwell on the chastisement but deny the glorious restoration of the nation on earth before all mankind?
 
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LOL

the gathering in rev 14 of ripe fruit is DURING THE GT.

No matter what, you are advancing a doctrine that says the resurrection of 1 thes 4 is AFTER the gathering of rev 14 DURING THE GT.

but you can not admit it.
Rather, you are simply too confused to understand what the Bible says. Apparently you think Rev 14:18's "gathering" is a rapture. Not.even.close.
 
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I agree with everything that you posted above,
:)

except for the following:
:(

"When Jesus returns to earth, ALL believers will be resurrected/changed."

This resurrection in Rev.20:4-6 is referring to the great tribulation saints. The church will have been gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath.
The main issue of this thread is about a pre-trib rapture. The problem is that there are no verses that teach that. In fact, all the so-called "rapture" verses are parallel to the verses about the Second Coming.

Compare Matt 24 with 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4. They all have the same things in common.

So, the GT saints in Rev 20 are part of ALL the saints who have previously died. They aren't a separate group. In fact, this is proven by the fact that the context mentions that their resurrection is the "first resurrection". If there was a prior resurrection 7 years before, then their resurrection CANNOT be called a "first resurrection".

For if you have the church being changed and caught up when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then it would mean that they would have to go through the entire wrath of God, which would be all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring.
While that is a common argument, let's recall that many of the judgments (wrath) during the GT are similar or the same as found in Exodus that occurred in Egypt. And God protected His people, the Jews during all that. I especially love the verse that says when there was thick darkness in Egypt, "there was light in Goshen". iow, God protected His people.

And there is a promise in Revelation about protection against the judgments during the GT.

The church at Philadelphia was 1 of only 2 of the 7 churches that the Lord didn't note some flaw or failure. iow, they were faithful. And the promise in 3:10 is that "since you have been faithful (kept My commands) I will also keep you from the hour of t5rial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth".

I know that many use this verse to claim that ALL Christians will miss the GT. But the promise is ONLY to faithful Christians, not ALL Christians. So, what does this mean? It means the unfaithful Christians will suffer the "sin unto (physical) death" of 1 John 5:16, and illustrated in 1 Cor 5:5, Acts 5, etc.

However, though faithful Christians will be kept from the hour of trial, they WILL experience martyrdom.

In further support of this, those who are resurrected in Rev.20:4-6, it is said that they will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. Regarding this, the church will never see the beast/antichrist.
The passage doesn't say or teach this. It teaches that these people were faithful (and died the martyr's death for it).

The church will not be on the earth when the mark becomes the only way of buying and selling.
It seems the majority of those who do not take the mark will be believers. Rev teaches that many or most will "refuse to repent".

You said it yourself when you posted the following:

"Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."
Maybe you misunderstood. This verse is parallel to 2 Tim 2:12. It's a promise for faithful (enduring) believers to reign with Christ (share in His glory).

Since believers within the church have been credited with the righteousness of Christ, have been reconciled to God, are co-heirs with Christ, how then can you put the church through God's wrath which Jesus already satisfied?
Not every believer will be a "co-heir with Christ" as I just explained. Only those who have "shared in His sufferings" (endured) will "share in His glory", per Rom 8:17b.

Jesus suffered God's wrath so that those who believe in Him would not be appointed to suffer His coming wrath.
That verse in 1 Thess 5 refers to the lake of fire, not the GT. Because that "wrath" is compared to salvation.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."
This is a salvation promise.

Since Jesus was already pierced and punished for our sins, why are you putting the church through God's wrath?
The GT is a trial or test for those living on the earth. The unstable and unfaithful believers will be removed through physical death via the various wraths (judgments) so that when the mark is given, they won't be around to take it.

Revelation 20:4-6 is the last phase of the first resurrection
This is only a construct, since there are no verses that teach anything about various phases of the resurrection.

Further, 1 Cor 15:23 shows clearly that regarding resurrection, Jesus Christ is the "first fruits", meaning He goes first. And "then, those who belong to Him". It's stated as the whole group together. Not phases.

which will be of the saints who come out of the great tribulation. This is not the church, but those who will become believers after the church has been changed and caught up and they will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
1Thess 4 is about the "first resurrection". That includes all who have already died, and those who haven't died.
 
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Armageddon and Magog are the same battle in parallel teachings
I figured you'd think so.

Jesus Christ dissolves the heavens and earth at his return
Prove that.

The 1,000 years in Rev 20:1-6 is taking place now in the Lords spiritual realm, and will cease at the second coming end of this world.
Please stop spiritualizing everything.
 
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Rather, you are simply too confused to understand what the Bible says. Apparently you think Rev 14:18's "gathering" is a rapture. Not.even.close.
Rather, you are simply too confused to understand what the Bible says. Apparently you think Rev 14:18's "gathering" is a rapture. Not.even.close.
I have never said it is the rapture.
Never.

Apparently you are confused or can not read rev 14.

Either way you realize you painted yourself into a corner,and are unwilling to admit your deal is impossible.

I would post the words of rev 14 once more but 6 or 8 times with no honest rebuttle has you silenced.

IOW you are unable to debate rev 14.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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""The main issue of this thread is about a pre-trib rapture. The problem is that there are no verses that teach that. In fact, all the so-called "rapture" verses are parallel to the verses about the Second Coming""

The second coming is on white horses.

You are oblivious to the rapture verses or rev 14.

You WILL NOT go there.


You have no case at all. Niether will you debate.

The rapture verses have been posted and you ignore them very dishonesty.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Rather, you are simply too confused to understand what the Bible says. Apparently you think Rev 14:18's "gathering" is a rapture. Not.even.close.
Lol

You can't read or what?

Gathering is a no brainier.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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I've never denied that. I've already agreed that is what the prophecies indicate earlier.

You aren't bringing anything to the table that proves Jesus' physical millennial reign on earth is false.
You've posted a verse about the chastisement and repentance of The Jewish people.
So why dwell on the chastisement but deny the glorious restoration of the nation on earth before all mankind?
Jerusalem is the Whore, Mystery Babaylon the Great, Not Rome as Many falsely teach, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Egypt Rev 11:8

There will be no restoration of a Jewish Israel, this earth is dissolved by fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ, "GONE"
The teaching of a 1,000 year Millennial on this earth, where Jews rule is a man made fairy tale
 
Jan 31, 2021
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what are you talking about ? I agree that Lazarus was raised from the dead
Keep in mind that when Jesus raised people from the dead, He wasn't resurrecting them with resurrection/changed bodies. They had their same physical bodies and eventually died again. What happened to their souls at physical death the first time isn't said. Some will speculate about that.

My point is simple the word “ resurrection “ means “ to be raised from death to life “
To be clear, "raised from physical death to eternal life". Not just "life".
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Rather, you are simply too confused to understand what the Bible says. Apparently you think Rev 14:18's "gathering" is a rapture. Not.even.close.
I have never said it is the rapture.
Never.
Well, your posts clearly suggest otherwise.

Apparently you are confused or can not read rev 14.
Apparently your posts are confusING.

Either way you realize you painted yourself into a corner,and are unwilling to admit your deal is impossible.
Well, you haven't proven by any kind of clear explanation as to how I've painted myself into any corner.

I would post the words of rev 14 once more but 6 or 8 times with no honest rebuttle has you silenced.
Sure. It's not the words that are the problem. It's how you misunderstand them that's the problem.

IOW you are unable to debate rev 14.
Rather, you are unable to make your point. iow, prove your point.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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2 Thess 2:1-2
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the DAY of Christ had come.
=======================================================================================
What is this specific day? The day of the Rapture.....of our gathering together with Him. Please note that this is NOT the Day of the Lord which is the GT.

The Day of Jesus Christ is both the age of the Church.....AND in this context what is clearly specified as the singular day of the Rapture.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Jerusalem is the Whore, Mystery Babaylon the Great, Not Rome as Many falsely teach, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Egypt Rev 11:8

There will be no restoration of a Jewish Israel, this earth is dissolved by fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ, "GONE"
The teaching of a 1,000 year Millennial on this earth, where Jews rule is a man made fairy tale
I understand. Your theology is a Hellenistic view of the universe where we all die and exist on an other-worldly plane somewhere.
I believe differently.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Jerusalem is the Whore, Mystery Babaylon the Great, Not Rome as Many falsely teach, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Egypt Rev 11:8

There will be no restoration of a Jewish Israel, this earth is dissolved by fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ, "GONE"
The teaching of a 1,000 year Millennial on this earth, where Jews rule is a man made fairy tale
I suggest you read the other 2/3 of the Bible that you have evidently forgotten about. In it you will find vast quantities of Scripture which deals with the SC and the restoration of Kingdom Israel on the earth.

There are many doctrines in the Bible. But the doctrine most spoken about is the restoration of Israel.