Jesus and Paul -two different gospels?
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L
He, Live4him, failed to acknowledged that, if Paul was preaching the exact same gospel as Peter, James et al all along, there would be no need for the Jerusalem Council in the first place, nor is there a need for And when there had been much disputing, (Acts 15:7)
I mean, what is there to "much disputing", when, quoting Live4him "they were all preaching the same exact thing"?
I mean, what is there to "much disputing", when, quoting Live4him "they were all preaching the same exact thing"?
Have you ever even read Acts chapter 15?
Here's how it begins:
Acts chapter 15
[1] And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
[2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
[3] And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
[4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
[5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[6] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
[7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[8] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[9] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[10] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
[12] Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Whatever dissension there was, it certainly wasn't among the likes of Paul, Barnabas, Peter, and James.
In reality, the dissension was caused by "certain men which came down from Judaea" who "taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved" (vs. 1).
Go ahead, Guojing, and quote us anywhere in the writings of Paul, Peter, or James where they ever taught such things in opposition to each other.
Of course, no such teachings could ever be found because, as I said, Paul, Peter, and James all preached the same gospel.
For this very cause, when Paul and Barnabas arrived in Jerusalem, "they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders" (vs. 4), and such would have never been the case if there had genuinely been any dissension among them.
It's bad enough that neither of you know what you are talking about, but, to make matters even worse, you join hand in hand to criticize those who actually do know what they're talking about.
You'll answer for it before God one day, so you really ought to repent while you still have the option to do so.
Peter and James were heading the Jerusalem HQ at that time. James was said to be the leader by the time Acts 15 came in.
Do you seriously think that, if both of them totally agreed with Paul, the other believers would dare to fall out of line?
No need to scare anyone with the last paragraph, I know how to build on the foundation that Paul laid for the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
Do you seriously think that, if both of them totally agreed with Paul, the other believers would dare to fall out of line?
No need to scare anyone with the last paragraph, I know how to build on the foundation that Paul laid for the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
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And even as late as Acts 21:20-25, James and the elders still had issues with Paul regarding circumcision and the law for Jewish believers.
And that was after Paul already wrote and circulated Romans, Galatians, as well as 1 and 2 Corinthians.
So much for "they were all preaching the same exact thing"
And that was after Paul already wrote and circulated Romans, Galatians, as well as 1 and 2 Corinthians.
So much for "they were all preaching the same exact thing"
L
Hi, Evmur.
Here's the account:
Galatians chapter 2
[11] But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
[12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
[13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
[14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
[15] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Peter needed to be rebuked by Paul because he withdrew and separated himself from Gentile believers OUT OF FEAR OF THEM WHICH WERE OF THE CIRCUMCISION or out of fear of believing Jews.
And...?
This doesn't mean that Peter and Paul didn't preach the same gospel.
In fact, whereas you said that Peter and Barnabas "were carried away with the DECEPTION", the Bible uses a completely different word:
DISSIMULATION (vs. 13).
If you don't know what "dissimulation" means, then this should help:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dissimulation
dissimulation
noun
the act of dissimulating; feigning; hypocrisy.
"Dissimulation" is HYPOCRISY, and that is precisely what Paul rebuked Peter for.
Whereas you and others are seeking to claim that this proves that Paul and Peter preached different gospels, it actually proves the exact opposite.
In other words, Peter was guilty of HYPOCRISY because he wasn't PRACTICING WHAT HE PREACHED...which is precisely the same gospel that Paul preached.
Just for the record.
Here's the account:
Galatians chapter 2
[11] But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
[12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
[13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
[14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
[15] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Peter needed to be rebuked by Paul because he withdrew and separated himself from Gentile believers OUT OF FEAR OF THEM WHICH WERE OF THE CIRCUMCISION or out of fear of believing Jews.
And...?
This doesn't mean that Peter and Paul didn't preach the same gospel.
In fact, whereas you said that Peter and Barnabas "were carried away with the DECEPTION", the Bible uses a completely different word:
DISSIMULATION (vs. 13).
If you don't know what "dissimulation" means, then this should help:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dissimulation
dissimulation
noun
the act of dissimulating; feigning; hypocrisy.
"Dissimulation" is HYPOCRISY, and that is precisely what Paul rebuked Peter for.
Whereas you and others are seeking to claim that this proves that Paul and Peter preached different gospels, it actually proves the exact opposite.
In other words, Peter was guilty of HYPOCRISY because he wasn't PRACTICING WHAT HE PREACHED...which is precisely the same gospel that Paul preached.
Just for the record.
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Can you tell that you are starting with that last point as an axiom, and then letting it affect how you interpret all these scriptural passages?
That is actually fine, all of us have a right to our own interpretation from various axioms. I am just wondering whether you are aware of it.
Because if you do, then you will have more understanding of other people's interpretations, even when you are sharing yours.
That is actually fine, all of us have a right to our own interpretation from various axioms. I am just wondering whether you are aware of it.
Because if you do, then you will have more understanding of other people's interpretations, even when you are sharing yours.
L
All what scriptural passages?
You've yet to show where Paul, Peter, or James preached different gospels.
At best, we've seen where Peter was guilty of "dissimulation" or HYPOCRISY for not practicing what he preached, which was precisely what Paul preached.
That's not "my own interpretation from an axiom" as you allege.
Instead, it's precisely what the scripture in question teaches.
Again, we read:
Galatians chapter 2
[11] But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
[12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
[13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
[14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
[15] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
In context, who are these "we who are Jews by nature" (vs. 15) that Paul was talking about?
Are they not Paul and Peter?
Of course, they are.
The significance of this reality?
Again, that both Paul and Peter knew AND PREACHED "that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ".
Surely, you can see that, can't you?
You've yet to show where Paul, Peter, or James preached different gospels.
At best, we've seen where Peter was guilty of "dissimulation" or HYPOCRISY for not practicing what he preached, which was precisely what Paul preached.
That's not "my own interpretation from an axiom" as you allege.
Instead, it's precisely what the scripture in question teaches.
Again, we read:
Galatians chapter 2
[11] But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
[12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
[13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
[14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
[15] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
In context, who are these "we who are Jews by nature" (vs. 15) that Paul was talking about?
Are they not Paul and Peter?
Of course, they are.
The significance of this reality?
Again, that both Paul and Peter knew AND PREACHED "that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ".
Surely, you can see that, can't you?
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I find it extremely hilarious how you lambast the guy who Jesus personally called and had write 2/3 of the New Testament.
The arrogance is with you. Clearly, you do not think Jesus knew what he was doing when he called Paul.
Is it possible you have made a mistake and have not properly exegesis the meaning when Paul said " My Gospel">?
You most certainly have. IF Paul was wrong and Peter was doing what Jesus wanted, why did Jesus admonish Peter in a dream about the gospel going to the gentiles where Paul had already done so and doing?
I can't believe the disrespect for an appointed Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ with such impunity.
it is actually sad, and I am hoping it is not arrogance but ignorance and foolishness those two are much easier to overcome.
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L
So, I have a sincere question for Guojing and throughfaith.
I'm pretty sure that I previously acknowledged that I haven't read all of the responses on this thread, but, in case I didn't, then know that I truly haven't read all of the responses here.
I said that to ask this:
Do either of you two believe that Jesus and Paul preached different gospels?
If you do, then could you each simply cite me one alleged contradiction between their preachings?
That's all that I ask.
Thank you.
I'm pretty sure that I previously acknowledged that I haven't read all of the responses on this thread, but, in case I didn't, then know that I truly haven't read all of the responses here.
I said that to ask this:
Do either of you two believe that Jesus and Paul preached different gospels?
If you do, then could you each simply cite me one alleged contradiction between their preachings?
That's all that I ask.
Thank you.
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L
I have already shown it using a picture you may have missed out, with the scriptural references
Whether or not you want to read those scriptural references and how you want to interpret them to fit your axiom, is beyond my control.
Please don't claim, however, that no one has tried to show you "where Paul, Peter, or James preached different gospels"
Whether or not you want to read those scriptural references and how you want to interpret them to fit your axiom, is beyond my control.
Please don't claim, however, that no one has tried to show you "where Paul, Peter, or James preached different gospels"