Who are the NEPHILIM in Genesis 6

This talk about a uturn isn't necessary. Much is not revealed. We rise to meet him. We don't know where other than "where the body is there the eagles will be gathered together" The clouds are all we get told.

Isn't it possible that there is some spiritual level of the heavenlies which we will be with Christ partaking with him of the unleashing of all of the judgments that dispossess the earth of its unlawful inhabitants first in all the seals, trumpets, bowls etc? Yes. It is possible.

We don't know all the details about the "clouds" and what that means. I think it is a spiritual realm issue that we are not privy to. We are only given hints to let us know of the glorious things that await those who endure until the end. The 24 elders and the 4 living creatures might be representative of the multitude of raptured saints who some how are with Christ saying "Come" or "Go" to each judgment released.

And maybe it is then that we dash the nations with a rod of iron and judge the world as much as any other time at the end of the millennial reign when the deceived nations gather again to fight against Christ and are destroyed yet a final time.

When does this dashing the nations as a potters vessel take place? Why not during the outpouring of the judgments after the opening of the seals of which the raptured saints partake in releasing by saying "Go" or "Come" to each one as it goes out from the throne. These 24 elders and 4 faced living creatures all sing the song saying "you have redeemed us by your blood" and so we know they are born again saints, and they are seen releasing these judgments before the other groups of redeemed martyrs, 144K or others are mentioned.

Maybe these are the redeemed raptured glorified saints in the heavenlies, clouds, a place where the throne of judgment and the scroll is brought forth specifically to carry out these judgments, a place you don't know about and cannot discount by talks of UTURNS and what not.

So, who produced the giants that were in the earth in those days and after that? There were giants in the OT that were 15 to 17 feet tall.

This talk about a U-turn most definitely is necessary.

With all due respect (sincerely), I trust, based solely upon our brief interactions on this forum, that you fully recognize the difference between exegesis and eisegesis.

For any who might not know the difference, exegesis has to do with pulling something "out" of scripture that is actually there.

In stark contrast, eisegesis has to do with injecting one's own beliefs "into" scripture because it isn't actually there.

As it pertains to the alleged U-turn back to heaven, it isn't found anywhere in scripture.

That's reality.

The only reason why people believe in it is either because they've been brainwashed into believing it by others or they've inserted it themselves where it doesn't truly exist.

As far as "where the body is there the eagles will be gathered" is concerned, when Jesus said that (Matt. 24:28, Luke 17:37), he was not only responding to the question "Where, Lord?" (Luke 17:37), but also alluding to the book of Job while doing so.

We read:

Job chapter 39

[27] Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?
[28] She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.
[29] From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off.
[30] Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.

Jesus basically told his disciples that he was going to return "where the slain are", and they're going to be at the battle of Armageddon, just like we read in Revelation chapter 19 at the time of Christ's SECOND, and only remaining, COMING.

No, it isn't possible, unless you believe that Jesus was a liar.

For example, in relation to the vials of God's wrath being poured out upon the face of the earth in the last days, we read:

Revelation chapter 16

[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
[2] And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
[3] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
[4] And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
[5] And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
[7] And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
[8] And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
[9] And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
[10] And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
[11] And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Notice that both "the mark of the beast" and "his image" are already here as the first vial of God's wrath is poured out upon the earth (vss. 1-2).

Notice too that "the seat of the beast, and his kingdom" are here when the fifth vial of God's wrath is poured out upon the earth (vs. 10).

Notice again that "the beast" and "the false prophet" are both here as the sixth vial of God's wrath is poured out upon the earth (vss. 12-13).

Now, notice what JESUS SAYS (Is he a liar?) between the sixth vial of God's wrath and the seventh vial of God's wrath being poured out upon the earth:

"Behold, I COME AS A THIEF. BLESSED IS HE THAT WATCHETH, AND KEEPETH HIS GARMENTS, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame" (vs. 15).

Again, both "the beast" (the antichrist) and "the false prophet" are already here BEFORE Jesus returns "as a thief" or as "a thief in the night"...just like Paul and others correctly taught.

I'll address the actual timeframe that the Bible gives for "dashing the nations with a rod of iron" in another response.

Hi, Scribe.

In this response, I will clearly show, from scripture, exactly when "this dashing the nations as a potter's vessel takes place".

Seeing how this is first mentioned in the second Psalm, I will begin there.

We read:

Psalm 2

[1] Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

The first 3 verses of this prophetic psalm foretold of the time when the Gentiles (“the heathen”), the people of Israel (“the people”), Herod (“the kings of the earth”) and Pilate (“the rulers”) took counsel together to crucify Jesus.

This is by no means my own “private interpretation” (II Pet. 1:20).

Instead, it is the plain teaching of scripture.

We read:

Acts chapter 4

[23] And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
[24] And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
[25] Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26] The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

God’s response?

Psalm 2

[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

God laughs, derides them, speaks unto them in his wrath, and vexes them in his sore displeasure.

What, exactly, does he speak?

He tells them that the same Jesus whom they have crucified will yet be his king upon his holy hill of Zion because, as I’ve told you before, at Christ’s second coming he will rule over this earth from the throne of David inside a temple in Zion or Jerusalem.

How can someone who has been crucified and is dead yet be king?

We read:

Psalm 2

[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Here is but one of several places in scripture where we are privileged to hear a conversation between the Father and the Son (Jesus).

Here is who is talking to whom:

[7] I (Jesus) will declare the decree: the LORD (God the Father) hath said unto me (Jesus) Thou (Jesus) art my (God the Father’s) Son; this day have I (God the Father) begotten thee (Jesus). – Parentheses mine.

To answer the question that I asked earlier, the way that someone who is dead (Jesus) can yet be king is if God raises him from the dead, and this is exactly what this verse of scripture is about.

Again, this is not my “private interpretation” (II Pet. 1:20), but rather the plain teaching of scripture.

We read:

Acts chapter 13

[29] And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
[30] But God raised him from the dead:
[31] And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
[32] And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

In its original context in Psalm 2:7, and in every other place it is quoted in the New Testament, the “day” in which Jesus was “begotten” is the day in which God raised him from the dead.

Continuing on in the second Psalm, we read:

Psalm 2

[8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

This is a continuation of the same conversation between the Father and the Son.

In other words, having raised Jesus from the dead, the Father tells Jesus:

[8] Ask (Jesus is the one being told to ask) of me (God the Father), and I (God the Father) shall give thee (Jesus) the heathen for thine (Jesus’) inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy (Jesus’) possession.
[9] Thou (Jesus) shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou (Jesus) shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. – Parentheses mine.

As I’ve been trying to explain to you all along, THIS, “the heathen (nations)..and the uttermost parts of the earth”, IS JESUS’ INHERITANCE…NOT heaven.

Furthermore, as Christians, THIS IS OUR INHERITANCE because we are “joint-heirs with Christ” (Rom. 8:17).

Once more, this is not my own “private interpretation” (II Pet. 1:20), but rather the plain teaching of scripture.

(continued in the next post)

(continued from the previous post)


We read:

Revelation chapter 2

[24] But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
[25] But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

That was Jesus speaking to THE CHURCH in Thyatira (Rev. 2:18).

He told THE CHURCH that if they held fast UNTIL HE COMES, and overcame, and kept his works unto the end, then he would give them power over the nations or “the heathen” (Psalm 2:8).

He continued on to tell them that they would rule them with a rod of iron, and that they would break them to shivers as the vessels of a potter EVEN AS HE RECEIVED OF HIS FATHER.

Where did he receive the same of his Father?

In Psalm 2:8-9, even as we just read.

In fact, the part about “ruling with a rod of iron” (Psalm 2:9) is mentioned twice more in the same book of Revelation.

We read:

“And she brought forth a man child, WHO WAS TO RULE ALL NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” (Rev. 12:5)

When Jesus returns TO THIS EARTH, he will “rule all nations with a rod of iron”, even as the Father promised him AND US AS HIS "JOINT-HEIRS" (Rom. 8:17) in Psalm 2:8-9 and Revelation 2:26-27.

Again, we read:

Revelation chapter 19

[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Again, WHEN JESUS RETURNS TO THIS EARTH, he shall RULE THE NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON, even as the Father promised him in Psalm 2:8-9.

If we truly are “joint-heirs with Christ” (Rom. 8:17), then we shall share his inheritance with him, and his inheritance is NOT heaven.

Heaven is merely an intermediary place.

If somebody told you that you’re going to spend eternity there or that you’re going to one day be “raptured” there, then they flat-out lied to you.

Jesus said:

“Blessed are the meek: FOR THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH.” (Matt. 5:5)

Yes, Jesus, while quoting Psalm 37:11, taught that “THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH”…NOT heaven.

Let’s quickly finish out the second psalm.

Psalm 2

[10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
[11] Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[12] Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

In light of the fact that Jesus has been raised from the dead or “begotten”…

In light of the fact that Jesus will yet be God’s appointed king on his holy hill of Zion at his second coming…

In light of the fact that Jesus and his saints shall rule the nations with a rod of iron when he returns TO THIS EARTH…

…the kings of this earth are instructed to be wise.

Yes, they’re instructed to serve the LORD with fear, and to rejoice with trembling, and to kiss the Son, Jesus, lest he be angry and wipe them out in his wrath when he returns.

In light of these Biblical truths that I've shared, hopefully, you recognize that BOTH Jesus AND Christians shall rule the nations AT HIS SECOND COMING TO THIS EARTH.

Thanks for reading.

It's all a series of judgments. There is the dashing of the nations with all of the judgments in Rev, and climax at Armegeddon, and then after 1000 years another dashing again when they are gathered by satan released from the pit.

They are dashed in the Day of the Lord, The Return of the Lord, and at the end of the Millennial reign, that final dashing. I see no contradiction in including the entire series of events. I see the saints involved after the rapture in the releasing of the seals as seen in the vision through the 4 creatures and the 24 elders who are redeemed saints and part of each release saying "Come" or "Go" I also see them riding on the horses with Christ. I don't really see them referenced at all in the final dashing after the Millennial so therefore it does seem that the releasing of the seals and the coming with Christ are the scriptural support of when they partake in this dashing of the nations with Christ. All of the prophesies you referenced support that this day of reckoning occurs in more than one 24 hour day.

No UTURN is necessary to believe in a premellennial rapture. As I said they could rise up to meet the Lord and from that meeting these judgements be poured out. They don't have to be in the "heaven" you are referring to. A place in the clouds is all that we know. You are insisting on a uturn and going some where further UP from the point in the Clouds but why? It is not needed. This place in the clouds could be a spiritual setting for the purpose of administering all of the plagues that are about to come upon the earth and have the raptured saints be involved in releasing them. "Go" or "Come" KJV "Come and see"

Well, I can tell you that I agree with one thing that you said:

"All of the prophecies you referenced support that this day of reckoning occurs in more than one 24 hour day." - Scribe

THIS is absolutely true.

For example, Peter, while laying out some end-times scenarios of his own, said the following:

II Peter chapter 3

[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Peter, while alluding to Psalm 90:4...

Psalm 90

[4] For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

...and in relation to "the day of Lord" (vs. 10), said that we must not be "ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

In other words, as you correctly said, prophesied events concerning the coming "day of the Lord" will NOT all be fulfilled in a single 24-hour time period, but rather over a stretch of 1,000 years, even as we're told in Revelation chapters 19 & 20.

That said, this still does not help your currently-held position one bit because this "day" or 1,000 year period BEGINS at the second coming of Jesus (and not at some alleged "pre-tribulation rapture" or "mid-tribulation rapture" that the Bible speaks nothing of) when he ushers in his 1,000-year or Millennial Reign RIGHT HERE ON EARTH.

This is what the scriptures teach...whether or not anybody likes it.

Hi Scribe!

When Jesus comes to gather His church, it must be prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath and is followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and finally the bowl judgments.

John 14:1-3 makes it very clear, that Jesus stated that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us, which could only be referring to heaven. Then He says that He will come back to get us and take us back to those places which the Lord will have prepared for us in the Father's house, so that we could be where He is. Therefore, when it is time, the Lord will descend to the atmosphere, where He will resurrect the dead, immortal and glorified. And then those still alive in Christ will be changed, immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air, where the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house (U-turn) to those places that the Lord went to prepare for us.

The key point here, is that those places that Jesus went to prepare for believers in the church, are in the Father's house. As He says, "in My Father's house are many dwelling places and I go and prepare a place for you." Therefore, the Father's house is where the church is going when the Lord gathers us. In further support of this, scripture states that Jesus ascend to the right hand of God where He is interceding for us, which again would heaven as the place where Jesus went to and where He prepared those dwelling places for us.

Regarding the plagues of wrath, as far as I know, believers in the church do not take part in initiating the plagues of wrath, but is done via the four living beings and by other angels. For example, the there are seven angels with seven trumpets and seven angels with seven bowl judgments. As each one sounds a trumpet or pours out a bowl, a plague of wrath takes place.

When the church is caught up and taken to the Father's house (heaven), we will at some point stand at the Bema seat of Christ for judgment, not for sin, but to receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad, i.e. reward or loss of reward. During that time, we, the bride, will also be at the wedding of the Lamb, where we will receive our fine linen, white and clean (Rev.19:6-8). And finally, we (the armies of heaven) will follow the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses as He descends to the earth to end the age and engage the nations at Armageddon.

So, what are you suggesting?

That the saints are going to be hanging out in the clouds with Jesus for 7 years ("pre-tribulation rapture" hoax), or 3 1/2 years ("mid-tribulation rapture" hoax), or that the saints will return immediately to this earth with Christ at his second coming?

I'm honestly not sure what you're saying here, so I'm seeking clarification.

Thanks.

By the way, I'm not the one who is insisting on a U-turn back to heaven.

Instead, the charlatans who teach a pre-tribulation rapture TO HEAVEN, the charlatans who teach a mid-tribulation rapture TO HEAVEN, and the people who believe any of that unscriptural nonsense are the ones who are truly insisting upon the same.

I'm just telling you that no such U-turn exists anywhere in scripture, and it doesn't..

If you believe that it does, then please provide chapter and verse.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

Since Jesus went to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for us and He said that He is coming back to get us to take us back to those places that He prepared for us which again are in the Father's house, then a U-turn, as you call it, would be necessary to come get us and then to take us back.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of John 14:1-3 when Jesus returns to get us to take us back to the Father's house.

Rev.19:6-8 also has the church/bride in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb. And verse 14 has us following Christ as He descends from heaven to the earth to end the age. Suffice to say, in order to follow Christ out of heaven, we would necessarily already have to be in heaven.

In addition, the church must be gathered from the earth prior to the wrath of God, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. And that because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. When we became believers, we were credited the Lord's righteousness and reconciled to God.

Where else would the saints go except to Heaven? What does "in my Father's house" mean if not Heaven? What does "where I am mean" except Heaven? So the real charlatans are those that DENY that the destination of the saints is indeed Heaven.

As a matter of fact ALL THE SAINTS who have passed on are presently in Heaven. Both the OT and NT saints. Their souls and spirits are right now in Heaven. And if anyone denies that, he or she should not claim to be a Christian.

Hi, Ahwatukee.

With all due respect, your analysis of John 14:1-3 is terribly flawed.

For example, whereas you claim that "the Father's house" is heaven, the Bible teaches something completely different.

In fact, NOWHERE in scripture is heaven referred to as "the Father's house".

Instead, "the Father's house" regularly refers to a temple in Jerusalem, and we don't have to look any further than the very same gospel of John to verify this fact.

We read:

John chapter 2

[13] And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
[14] And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
[15] And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
[16] And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
[17] And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

We clearly see this same exact TRUTH in the following passages of scripture as well:

Matthew chapter 21

[12] And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
[13] And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Again:

Mark chapter 2

[25] And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
[26] How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

Of course, "the house of God" was THE TEMPLE, and NOT heaven.

Again:

Mark chapter 11

[15] And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
[16] And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
[17] And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Etc., etc., etc...including MANY references to the same in the Old Testament scriptures.

Okay, it's your turn.

Show us in scripture where "the Father's house" truly is heaven.

Here's what John 14:1-3 actually says:

John chapter 14

[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

As I've already rightly stated, the "Father's house" is a TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM.

Furthermore, all of this "mansions" nonsense aside, the Greek word which is here translated as "mansions" is monē , and it only appears twice in the underlying Greek of the New Testament, and you can easily verify that for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3438&t=KJV

In fact, the only other place that it appears is in this very same 14th chapter of John.

We read:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23)

Here, it is much better translated as "abode" because monē simply means a "room" or a "dwelling".

With such a reality before us, Jesus was telling his disciples (Judas had already left to betray him) that when he CAME AGAIN (vs. 3), he would receive them unto himself, that WHERE HE WAS, WHEN HE CAME AGAIN, there they might be also.

Well, where will Jesus be when he COMES AGAIN and receives them unto himself?

He'll be RIGHT HERE ON EARTH, and NOT in heaven.

Again, you're reading things into the text that simply are not there.

In light of THE FACT that Jesus will be RIGHT HERE ON EARTH WHEN HE COMES AGAIN, and in light of the fact that he had already told them that "in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28), he merely informed them that his "Father's house", THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM FROM WHICH CHRIST WILL REIGN OVER THIS EARTH AT HIS SECOND COMING, had "many rooms" that would more than accommodate THEM AT THAT TIME.

That's its, folks, so cancel the landscaper in heaven.

It's NEVER happening.

You've only been duped into believing that it is.

Sorry to have to be so blunt, but I'm truly trying to help you.

No disrespect intended.

Hi, Nehemiah6.

I NEVER said or even implied that "the saints who have passed on are" NOT "in heaven", so please spare me any strawman arguments.

IN FACT, I've plainly stated, more than once, that when CHRIST DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN HE WILL BRING THE DEAD IN CHRIST WITH HIM FROM HEAVEN, so please pay closer attention to what's actually being said.

Anyhow, what I actually said is that saints are NOT going to be "raptured" to heaven (by heaven, I mean the third heaven...they will meet the LORD IN HIS DESCENT), and they will not.

As far as the Father's house is concerned, I just addressed that moments ago, so please refer to my other post for the correct answer to that question.

Hi, Ahwatukee.

I've already addressed John 14:1-3 and what you referenced from I Thessalonians chapter 4, so I'll just concentrate on your other points in this response.

Here's what Revelation chapter 19 says:

[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
[7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
[8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Where does this say "Rev.19:6-8 also has the church/bride in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb"?

Instead, it says "the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready" (vs. 7).

It also says "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (vs. 9), and then we see Jesus returning.

In other words, we don't actually see anybody partaking of the marriage supper in heaven, and there are good reasons for that.

Look, my desire truly is to be respectful, but, at the same time, I honestly believe that we must be ashamed at times for things which we've wrongly believed so that we can genuinely repent and forsake such things.

With that in mind, please allow me to ask you some questions.

Do you HONESTLY believe that while "the marriage supper of the Lamb" is allegedly taking place in heaven there are saints on the earth who are excluded from the same?

I mean, as saints, aren't they also part of Christ's bride?

Do they at least get a doggy bag or something?

Seriously, it's pure, heretical nonsense, and anybody who truly believes these things should literally be ashamed of themselves.

I can just picture it now...

There are saints on the earth during a time a tribulation like the world has never known.

They're crying out in desperation to Jesus...and he's eating a piece of lamb or something in heaven.

Doesn't scripture tell us that Jesus will remain seated at the Father's right hand until his enemies are made his footstool?

Doesn't he continually make intercession for the saints while at the Father's right hand as our merciful and faithful high priest?

Of course, he is and does, but you would have us to believe, I guess, that some sort of folding tables are going to be set up around his throne so everybody can have a feast WHILE SAINTS ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED ON THE EARTH.

Look, I honestly like you, I truly do, but, seriously, please just give up this heretical nonsense and embrace the actual truth of scripture.

Again, there are only TWO RESURRECTIONS, and "the first resurrection" takes place when Christ returns, so how the heck did people allegedly receive glorified, resurrected bodies in an alleged "rapture to heaven" PRIOR TO THE FIRST RESURRECTION?

Of course, the correct answer is that they didn't.

Jesus said:

Matthew chapter 26

[29] But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, there might be a little "fruit of the vine" at "the marriage supper of the Lamb"?

I do, and it will be drunk "in my Father's kingdom", and that kingdom is COMING to this earth.

In fact, I believe that Isaiah not only prophesied of this "supper" or "feast", but also told us where it will actually take place when he wrote:

Isaiah chapter 25

[6] And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
[7] And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
[8] He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
[9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

"He will swallow up death in victory"?

Where have we heard that before?

Right here:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Don't you see any correlation between the two?

I do.

As far as the whole "wrath of God" thing is concerned, I already covered that in a previous response.

Like it or not, ACCORDING TO JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, at the timeframe between the pouring out of the 6th vial of God's wrath and the 7th vial of God's wrath, JESUS HAS STILL NOT RETURNED AS A THIEF OR AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." (Rev. 16:15)

Are you wiser than JESUS CHRIST?

Seriously, you're literally preaching the EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT JESUS CHRIST TAUGHT, and that really ought to strike terror in your heart.

Please read Revelation 16:15 in context, and see if what I just told you isn't true.

Seeing how it is the truth, why do you fight against it?

Are you stronger than the Lord?

Of course, i don't believe that Christians are appointed unto God's wrath, but this does not mean that they won't be here when it is poured out upon the earth.

God made a distinction between his people and the Egyptians during the plagues of Egypt, and he'll similarly make a distinction as his wrath is being poured out in the last days.

I'm done for the night.

I've been wearied by saints for telling the truth.

What a shame.

Good night.

Your Claim Is False, Jesus Christ Warned His Followers Of Your Teaching, Jesus Christ Wont Be Found Anyplace Upon This Earth As You Claim.

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"!

The Future Antichrist Will Sit In Jerusalem, And Proclaim To Be Messiah God To Jews, And Jesus Christ Returned To The "Apostate" Church.

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Ezr_7:23 Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?

Not sure whose point you're trying to prove, but thanks for further proving mine.

Of course, "the house of the God OF heaven" and NOT "the house of the God IN heaven" was the temple in Jerusalem.

It's so obvious by reading the surrounding verses, but this one ought to suffice:

"And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to his place, and place them in the house of God." (Ezra 6:5)

No, my claim is true, and, once again, you're here doing Satan's bidding.

We read:

Isaiah chapter 9

[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Again:

Luke chapter 1

[26] And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
[27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
[29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
[32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
[33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

As far as the antichrist is concerned, I've been saying all along that he will sit in Christ's seat PRIOR TO CHRIST'S SECOND COMING, so you really ought to work on your reading comprehension skills before making an even bigger fool out of yourself.

Read It Again, Jesus Isnt Going To Be On Earth With Mortal Humans, You Claim He Is, Setting The Unaware Up For The (Antichrist)

Your Claim Is False, Jesus Christ Warned His Followers Of Your Teaching, Jesus Christ Wont Be Found Any Where Upon This Earth As You Claim.

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"!

The Future Antichrist Will Sit In Jerusalem, And Proclaim To Be Messiah God To Jews, And Jesus Christ Returned To The "Apostate" Church.

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.