Not By Works

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OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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Guojing said:
You never heard of Abraham's bosom/Paradise?
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The purpose of the Old Testament sacrifices was to point forward to Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. God justified Old Testament believers on the basis
of what Christ WOULD do.

Do you not believe that the OT faithful were justified, or do you not understand justification MUST include imputed righteousness, without which no man could ever be justified?
 
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eternally-gratefull

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Guojing said:
Just because you disagree with others interpretation of scripture, and fail to persuade them to have your interpretation instead, does not mean discussions are a waste of time.

Why not just be cordial in your interactions with others, no matter who they are?

At least we have established that there is no scripture stating the OT saints have the imputed righteousness of Christ.

If you still want to believe in that doctrine, you are of course free to do so.
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How can I be cordial to a person who is arrogant and so proud he can not answer simple questions, amd,then feels like he did nothing wrong.

you may not be so hard to discuss with if you would just humble yourself, but it seems that is to hard for you
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#150,444
#150,444
OIC1965 said:
The purpose of the Old Testament sacrifices was to point forward to Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. God justified Old Testament believers on the basis
of what Christ WOULD do.

Do you not believe that the OT faithful were justified, or do you not understand justification MUST include imputed righteousness, without which no man could ever be justified?
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Amen, and how many times do we have to quote Gen 15 where is says Abraham was accounted or imputed with righteousness before he gets it? Then says we did not show him scripture?
 
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OIC1965

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@ Guojing. Justification has always been “ declared righteous by a righteousness not your own, through faith.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#150,446
OIC1965 said:
Galatians 3:10. If you do not keep the Law completely and perfectly, you are cursed apart from imputed righteousness. That went for those OT Saints too
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Gal 3:10 is paul quoting moses, when the law was given. Perfection was required, failure to live up to that standard caused you to be cursed by the law. Or as James said, to be guilty,

as paul said, for all have sinned and fall short, ot and NT alike we are all guilty
 
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eternally-gratefull

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OIC1965 said:
Justification has always been “ declared righteous by a righteousness not your own, through imputed faith.
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Amen, through redemption which was bought with a price, the cross, not just for the Ot, but all men who ever lived,
 
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Guojing

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eternally-gratefull said:
Amen, and how many times do we have to quote Gen 15 where is says Abraham was accounted or imputed with righteousness before he gets it? Then says we did not show him scripture?
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Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

You are inferring that that righteousness is exactly the same as Christ's righteousness imputed to us in the Body of Christ. You are reading that inference into that passage.

I also asked about David, Samuel etc, what about them?
 
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OIC1965

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eternally-gratefull said:
Gal 3:10 is paul quoting moses, when the law was given. Perfection was required, failure to live up to that standard caused you to be cursed by the law. Or as James said, to be guilty,

as paul said, for all have sinned and fall short, ot and NT alike we are all guilty
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That’s why God sent His Son. God justified them based on what Christ WOULD do and He justified us based on what Christ HAS done. ( caps for emphasis)
 
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Guojing

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OIC1965 said:
The purpose of the Old Testament sacrifices was to point forward to Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. God justified Old Testament believers on the basis
of what Christ WOULD do.

Do you not believe that the OT faithful were justified, or do you not understand justification MUST include imputed righteousness, without which no man could ever be justified?
Click to expand...
I am saying the OT saints will be saved together, corporately when Jesus Christ returns for the nation Israel, to forgive all the sins of the nation under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:12, Romans 11:26-27, Acts 3:19-21)

The OT saints do not have the same imputed righteousness of Christ in them now, unlike us in the Body of Christ. (Ephesians 1:7)

That is why Paul quoted David in Romans 4 as "us in the Body of Christ" being truly blessed. We have something NOW that he never had.
 
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OIC1965

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Guojing said:
Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

You are inferring that that righteousness is exactly the same as Christ's righteousness imputed to us in the Body of Christ. You are reading that inference into that passage.

I also asked about David, Samuel etc, what about them?
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The faith itself is not enough to receive imputed righteousness without the work of Christ. It is the work of Christ that is our righteousness, not our faith.

God counted his faith as righteousness. If he was justified by faith alone, it would not be sufficient. Christ’s work is the sufficient grounds of our justification
 
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Guojing

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OIC1965 said:
The faith itself is not enough to receive imputed righteousness without the work of Christ. It is the work of Christ that is our righteousness, not our faith.

God counted his faith as righteousness. If he was justified by faith alone, it would not be sufficient. Christ’s work is the sufficient grounds of our justification
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Yes, so Abraham, together with the rest of the OT saints, being born and died before the cross, do not enjoy the same blessings we have NOW in the body of Christ, which includes Christ's imputed righteousness on them.

They will receive them LATER.
 
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OIC1965

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Guojing said:
I am saying the OT saints will be saved together, corporately when Jesus Christ returns for the nation Israel, to forgive all the sins of the nation under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:12, Romans 11:26-27, Acts 3:19-21)


The OT saints do not have the same imputed righteousness of Christ in them now, unlike us in the Body of Christ. (Ephesians 1:7)

That is why Paul quoted David in Romans 4 as "us in the Body of Christ" being truly blessed. We have something NOW that he never had.
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If they do not have the righteousness of Christ, what righteousness do they have?
 
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OIC1965

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Guojing said:
Yes, so Abraham, together with the rest of the OT saints, being born and died before the cross, do not enjoy the same blessings we have NOW in the body of Christ, which includes Christ's imputed righteousness on them.

They will receive them LATER.
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What they did not have was the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They were justified. Justification is not just forgiveness of sins. It is a positive righteousness credited that is not your own, but is the righteousness of God

So if they did not have Christ’s righteousness, what righteousness did they have?
 
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Guojing

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OIC1965 said:
If they do not have the righteousness of Christ, what righteousness do they have?
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You tell me, Peter was clear in this about David in Acts 2, which was even after the cross

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

David is not in heavens now, he is in Paradise/Abraham's bosom, waiting with the rest of Israel for Christ's return.
 
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OIC1965

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Guojing said:
You tell me, Peter was clear in this about David in Acts 2, which was after the cross

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

David is not in heavens now, he is in Paradise/Abraham's bosom, waiting with the rest of Israel for Christ's return.
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That is debatable. That is speaking of David’s body, Peter was talking about his buried body in part or maybe in whole. I think. Either way, it has nothing to do with justification. When I die, my body will stay in the grave till the resurrection too
 
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eternally-gratefull

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Guojing said:
Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

You are inferring that that righteousness is exactly the same as Christ's righteousness imputed to us in the Body of Christ. You are reading that inference into that passage.

I also asked about David, Samuel etc, what about them?
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And I asked you to tell me if it was abrahams own righteousness or davids and Samuelson righteousness which God spoke of and you refused to answer,

how can you expect to,prove your point when you refuse to answer who’s righteousness it was?
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#150,460
OIC1965 said:
That is debatable. That is speaking of David’s body, Peter was talking about his buried body in part or maybe in whole. I think. Either way, it has nothing to do with justification. When I die, my body will stay in the grave till the resurrection too
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He won’t answer you either I see.

then he gets upset when we keep pushing him to answer.

no one is in heaven yet, Peter is not in heaven yet, when I die, I will go to paradise and meet Abraham, Daniel, david and my parents and grandparents as we all await the ressurection

why he can’t grasp that is beyond me
 
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