At Jesus' Ascension, some of the 11 "DOUBTED Him"!

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Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#21
TheWaytoGo said:
Except the doubt came while they were "worshiping" Jesus, not after.
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It may sound like that, but that's not really the case: And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen. (Luke 24:51-53).
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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#22
throughfaith said:
Didn't they have to wait to receive the Holy Spirit in the upper room ?
Peter did not believe the resurrection after it happened. Nor the cross . The disciples didn't understand many things until Cornelius and then until Paul .
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Hello Throughfaith, et al, in John 20:8 the Apostle John tells us that upon entering the empty tomb, "he saw and believed". He goes on to tell us in v9 that he did not yet have a complete, Biblical understanding, at least until he saw the empty tomb* (or perhaps that he had not remembered/put it all together yet .. cf John 2:19-22), but in whatever the case may be, it seems that he may have been the very first of us to come to true, saving faith in our now resurrected Lord.

~Deut

John 20​
1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.​
2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”​
3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.​
4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.​
5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.​
6 Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,​
7 as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus’ head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.​
8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.​
9 They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead. (NASB)​
​
8 Then the disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed—​
9 for until then they still hadn’t understood the Scriptures that said Jesus must rise from the dead. (NLT)​

*I prefer the NLT's translation of v9, which the tense (pluperfect) at least allows for (and because it seems to make more sense in context).
.
 
T

TheWaytoGo

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#23
#23
notuptome said:
Vs 16 does not limit the number to 11. The 11 were there but like the upper room there could have been more. The text does not say only 11 went as instructed. The women who carried the message could certainly have followed to Galilee since they knew Jesus would be there.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Actually it does limit it to the eleven. Mary Magdalene was instructed to tell His "brethren" to meet him. Then she told "the disciples" to meet Him, then "the eleven" went to meet him in a secret place only they knew about it. If it were different, it would have said the eleven and those following.
 
T

TheWaytoGo

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#24
#24
Nehemiah6 said:
It may sound like that, but that's not really the case: And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen. (Luke 24:51-53).
Click to expand...

Good point. Thanks.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#25
#25
Deuteronomy said:
Hello Throughfaith, et al, in John 20:8 the Apostle John tells us that upon entering the empty tomb, "he saw and believed". He goes on to tell us in v9 that he did not yet have a complete, Biblical understanding, at least until he saw the empty tomb* (or perhaps that he had not remembered/put it all together yet .. cf John 2:19-22), but in whatever the case may be, it seems that he may have been the very first of us to come to true, saving faith in our now resurrected Lord.

~Deut

John 20​
1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.​
2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”​
3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.​
4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.​
5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.​
6 Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,​
7 as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus’ head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.​
8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.​
9 They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead. (NASB)​
​
8 Then the disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed—​
9 for until then they still hadn’t understood the Scriptures that said Jesus must rise from the dead. (NLT)​

*I prefer the NLT's translation of v9, which the tense (pluperfect) at least allows for (and because it seems to make more sense in context).
.
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My theory here is that it was the position of the linen that shook him. It was wrapped in the position as it would be around the head and in the place where the head would have laid separated from the other burial linen that had been wrapped around him. The Greek for the word folded here means wrapped so when we read folded we get a different perspective like a folded napkin but that is not what it means, it means wrapped. So my theory is that as soon as he saw the clothing it appeared as though the person who had been lying there had just come up out of them and left them behind. Can I prove it? No. But it seems to be the best interpretation of any that I have heard. When he saw the way the head cloth was still wrapped and in the position that it was in separate from the other linen as if someone had risen out of it, he believed. It was a sign of a miracle in other words. It suggested a miracle. The position of the clothing screamed a miracle had taken place. What position would that be? Like how I described it?

In chapter 19 the same author John mentions miracles on the cross and attaches faith to them:
34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.

This is why I think that the water was a miracle not just a plasma sack. It pointed to the rock of Horeb and fulfilled the prophecy in Zephaniah about a fount being opened for sin
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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#26
Apologies, the Scripture that I quoted in post #22, John 20:1-9, is actually from the NIVUK, not the NASB. Sorry about that :oops:
 
G

Guojing

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#27
They never really switched (Galatians 2:7-9), even as late as Acts 21:18-25.

They only permitted Paul to preached that gospel of the uncircumcision to the gentiles.
 
T

throughfaith

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#28
Aug 4, 2020
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#28
Deuteronomy said:
Hello Throughfaith, et al, in John 20:8 the Apostle John tells us that upon entering the empty tomb, "he saw and believed". He goes on to tell us in v9 that he did not yet have a complete, Biblical understanding, at least until he saw the empty tomb* (or perhaps that he had not remembered/put it all together yet .. cf John 2:19-22), but in whatever the case may be, it seems that he may have been the very first of us to come to true, saving faith in our now resurrected Lord.

~Deut

John 20​
1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.​
2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”​
3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.​
4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.​
5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.​
6 Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,​
7 as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus’ head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.​
8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.​
9 They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead. (NASB)​
​
8 Then the disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed—​
9 for until then they still hadn’t understood the Scriptures that said Jesus must rise from the dead. (NLT)​

*I prefer the NLT's translation of v9, which the tense (pluperfect) at least allows for (and because it seems to make more sense in context).
.
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Would you say from your translation that they believed that Jesus body had been taken ( John 20 v2 )
 
T

throughfaith

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#29
Aug 4, 2020
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#29
Deuteronomy said:
Hello Throughfaith, et al, in John 20:8 the Apostle John tells us that upon entering the empty tomb, "he saw and believed". He goes on to tell us in v9 that he did not yet have a complete, Biblical understanding, at least until he saw the empty tomb* (or perhaps that he had not remembered/put it all together yet .. cf John 2:19-22), but in whatever the case may be, it seems that he may have been the very first of us to come to true, saving faith in our now resurrected Lord.

~Deut

John 20​
1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.​
2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”​
3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.​
4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.​
5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.​
6 Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,​
7 as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus’ head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.​
8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.​
9 They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead. (NASB)​
​
8 Then the disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed—​
9 for until then they still hadn’t understood the Scriptures that said Jesus must rise from the dead. (NLT)​

*I prefer the NLT's translation of v9, which the tense (pluperfect) at least allows for (and because it seems to make more sense in context).
.
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Luke 24
1¶Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

3And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

4And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

5And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, were you not looking forward to the cross like all the professors teach? , lol oops why seek ye the living among the dead?

6He is not here, but is risen: Remember what they taught you in seminary how you were looking forward to the cross ? oops wink 😉 how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

7Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

8¶And they remembered REMEMBERED his words,

9And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. ( Who obviously were not looking forward to the cross or resurrection)

10It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostle

11And their words seemed to them as IDLE TALES and they BELIEVED THEM NOT .

12Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, LEAPING FOR JOY BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN LOOKING FORWARD TO THE CROSS ALL A LONG? NO WONDERING himself at that which was come to pass.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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Mat 28:16 But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had given them orders to go.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they gave him worship: but some were in doubt.

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Luk 24:24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.


Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#31
Jul 31, 2013
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#31
TheWaytoGo said:
Except the doubt came while they were "worshiping" Jesus, not after.
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it says they worshipped Him, but some doubted

this is linking the doubt to worshipping Him. worshipping Him is directly indicating that they considered Him to be the LORD God Himself -- isn't this what some doubted?

and even now -- how many people are called 'Christian' but don't believe that Christ is God?
how many even reading this thread would say He is not?
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#32
ewq1938 said:
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
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it is when Thomas says "my Lord and my God!" that Jesus replies to him, you believe

who is the Messiah? is there any doubt?

link to collected scriptural evidence thread: Christ is God
 
L

Live4Him

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#33
R

RTTippett

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There can be so many differences in English translations of Scripture, I like to go to the Bible Hub Interlinear page and see what the original text is. As far that the Greek word you refer to, translated as "doubted," it can equally mean "wavered." I do not think that is reference to them doubting Jesus, but some of those worshiping God wavering, not feeling they could ever replace Jesus, with him seen ascended. I think it is safe to say all doubts were erased the next day, when the Holy Spirit filled them.
 
S

Scribe

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#35
RTTippett said:
There can be so many differences in English translations of Scripture, I like to go to the Bible Hub Interlinear page and see what the original text is. As far that the Greek word you refer to, translated as "doubted," it can equally mean "wavered." I do not think that is reference to them doubting Jesus, but some of those worshiping God wavering, not feeling they could ever replace Jesus, with him seen ascended. I think it is safe to say all doubts were erased the next day, when the Holy Spirit filled them.
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It was 10 days later but I get your point. I think of this when I read about Mary clinging to His feet and he had to tell her that He was going to the Father because He would send the Holy Spirit which would be in her and this was better than she could comprehend yet.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit and this new relationship with the Jesus by the The Son and the Father coming and making their abode within us by the Holy Spirit is more than we can fully comprehend. It is better than Jesus being limited to a location on Earth but Mary could not grasp that yet and did not want to let him go.

Jesus was not telling her that she could not touch him as if she wasn't making contact with him, because in Matthew we know that there were two women clinging to his feet and he tells them to go tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee. One goes and the other keeps clinging to him. In John he has to explain again the promise of the Father, (He must ascend so that Mary can have Jesus in her by the Holy Spirit which is better even though she does not understand it yet. There were not two ascensions. He ascended once before all the witnesses later.

Anyway this, revelation of the Holy Spirit in us, is so powerful. If we ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit for power to be a witness and wait upon the Lord as they did, we will receive infillings of power and this is in addition to having the Holy Spirit in us from salvation and being born again. As when they prayed for boldness to preach and the how house was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit again even though they had experienced Pentecost.

I am sure that during those 10 days they waited in the upper room they wondered whether they should quit praying and go do something about the commission they had been given to go into all the world and preach. But they had to keep waiting and praying.

Some have never successfully prayed for a solid hour. Few for more than one day. They prayed everyday, all day (with breaks obviously since they had time to cast lots for the 12th apostle) and I imagined they slept. But they got up and kept on praying, all day everyday for 10 days.

I wonder what would happen if we did that again?
 
L

Live4Him

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#36
Scribe said:
I am sure that during those 10 days they waited in the upper room they wondered whether they should quit praying and go do something about the commission they had been given to go into all the world and preach. But they had to keep waiting and praying.

Some have never successfully prayed for a solid hour. Few for more than one day. They prayed everyday, all day (with breaks obviously since they had time to cast lots for the 12th apostle) and I imagined they slept. But they got up and kept on praying, all day everyday for 10 days.

I wonder what would happen if we did that again?
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Hmmm?

Sounds like a clarion call to prayer to me.

I really do need to commit myself to some solid prayer, so thanks for this reminder.
 
R

RTTippett

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#37
Scribe said:
It was 10 days later but I get your point. I think of this when I read about Mary clinging to His feet and he had to tell her that He was going to the Father because He would send the Holy Spirit which would be in her and this was better than she could comprehend yet.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit and this new relationship with the Jesus by the The Son and the Father coming and making their abode within us by the Holy Spirit is more than we can fully comprehend. It is better than Jesus being limited to a location on Earth but Mary could not grasp that yet and did not want to let him go.

Jesus was not telling her that she could not touch him as if she wasn't making contact with him, because in Matthew we know that there were two women clinging to his feet and he tells them to go tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee. One goes and the other keeps clinging to him. In John he has to explain again the promise of the Father, (He must ascend so that Mary can have Jesus in her by the Holy Spirit which is better even though she does not understand it yet. There were not two ascensions. He ascended once before all the witnesses later.

Anyway this, revelation of the Holy Spirit in us, is so powerful. If we ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit for power to be a witness and wait upon the Lord as they did, we will receive infillings of power and this is in addition to having the Holy Spirit in us from salvation and being born again. As when they prayed for boldness to preach and the how house was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit again even though they had experienced Pentecost.

I am sure that during those 10 days they waited in the upper room they wondered whether they should quit praying and go do something about the commission they had been given to go into all the world and preach. But they had to keep waiting and praying.

Some have never successfully prayed for a solid hour. Few for more than one day. They prayed everyday, all day (with breaks obviously since they had time to cast lots for the 12th apostle) and I imagined they slept. But they got up and kept on praying, all day everyday for 10 days.

I wonder what would happen if we did that again?
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I apologize for mistaking the timing. I leaped forward to the ascension. I'm not sure how you mean ten days? It was after the Passover festival was over and the forty days of training began. The ascension was when the disciples and other followers began prayers before Pentecost. Still, the doubting or wavering was based on them still being in shock, not yet prepared for what was coming. It was self-doubts, not doubt of Jesus.
 
S

Scribe

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#38
#38
RTTippett said:
I apologize for mistaking the timing. I leaped forward to the ascension. I'm not sure how you mean ten days? It was after the Passover festival was over and the forty days of training began. The ascension was when the disciples and other followers began prayers before Pentecost. Still, the doubting or wavering was based on them still being in shock, not yet prepared for what was coming. It was self-doubts, not doubt of Jesus.
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I'm no expert and I was not trying to correct you. I think Pentecost is called that because it was 50 days after Passover and Jesus had been seen for 40 days before he was taken up that leaves 10 days to Pentecost. The "not many days hence" was probably 10 days. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. My main point was that they prayed for days not knowing how long it would be. They did not know that something special was going to happen on the day of Pentecost. Not that we know of. They might have sensed something was going to happen after praying for 10 days, but we don't really know what they were thinking. It is safe to assume they were prepared to keep praying until something happened that would match what Jesus told them.
 
L

Live4Him

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#39
#39
Scribe said:
I'm no expert and I was not trying to correct you. I think Pentecost is called that because it was 50 days after Passover and Jesus had been seen for 40 days before he was taken up that leaves 10 days to Pentecost. The "not many days hence" was probably 10 days. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. My main point was that they prayed for days not knowing how long it would be. They did not know that something special was going to happen on the day of Pentecost. Not that we know of. They might have sensed something was going to happen after praying for 10 days, but we don't really know what they were thinking. It is safe to assume they were prepared to keep praying until something happened that would match what Jesus told them.
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You are somewhat correct in your timing.

Jesus was crucified on the Feast of Passover, he rose from the dead on the Feast of Firstfruits, and the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Feast of Pentecost 50 days after the Feast of Firstfruits (Lev. 23:16), not Passover.
 
R

RTTippett

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#40
Scribe said:
I'm no expert and I was not trying to correct you. I think Pentecost is called that because it was 50 days after Passover and Jesus had been seen for 40 days before he was taken up that leaves 10 days to Pentecost. The "not many days hence" was probably 10 days. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. My main point was that they prayed for days not knowing how long it would be. They did not know that something special was going to happen on the day of Pentecost. Not that we know of. They might have sensed something was going to happen after praying for 10 days, but we don't really know what they were thinking. It is safe to assume they were prepared to keep praying until something happened that would match what Jesus told them.
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OIC what you mean. The Jews ritually count the days [called Counting the Omer], which begins on the second day of the Passover festival [Nisan 16] and goes for seven weeks [49 days]. That Passover began on a Friday [6:00 PM it technically became the Sabbath then, 15 Nisan], so the 1st day of the Omer was that Sunday, beginning at 6:00 PM on the Sabbath. The following Sunday was when Jesus was found risen, which was the 8th day of the Omer. Jesus met the disciples in the upper room twice on Sunday, once before 6:00 PM (without Thomas there) and once after 6:00 PM (with Thomas there). When he met Thomas it was technically Nisan 23, the 9th day of the Omer count [Monday]. John wrote, "after the day eighth," which says after the eighth day of the Counting of the Omer [John 20:26], when Jesus met Thomas. On Tuesday, the 10th day of the Omer Jesus began his Disciple-to-Apostles Boot Camp, which lasted from Day 10 to Day 49 [40 days[. He ascended on a Sabbath, the 49th day. The Apostles were risen as Jesus reborn on the next day, Pentecost Sunday.
 
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