Body Of CHRIST "Does NOT" Go To Heaven?

No assumptions

We know the dead in Christ are resurrected and taken to heaven immediately.

We know they precede the living.

We know Postrib s have that exactly backwards.

Rev 14 has a gathering of ripe fruit during the trib ( hello...you refute that....you say the rapture/ resurrection is after rev 14)

All facts....no assumptions.

I stand on Gods word while you futilely attempt to say I did not make you go against the bible.

That's what i showcase...you guys going against the bible.

I have such an easy job.

Read the passage. This is a harvest of grapes, not wheat.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Nice to see a peaceful discussion. So many different ideas out there. When you want the real answer, just come to papa Oyster.

Yes re read it.
The ripe fruit is gathered by Jesus.

The over ripe gathered later. A separate harvest by angels. Not Jesus.

The ripe fruit is main harvest. The 144k are firstfruits of the main harvest.
The first two harvests are Jews.

The third is possibly Jew and gentile mix (the only harvest of three you looked at)

The Jews are ushered to safety early on or midway in the GT.
The GT is Jacobs trouble or the gathering of the Jews.

Hardly anyone is interested or takes the time to unpack revelation.

Show specific verses you are referring to, please, along with scripture to back up how you interpret the passages.

My approach is to accept what the very clear didactic passages teach, and allegorical type passages need to be interpreted in line with the clear passages. Your approach seems to be to ignore what the clear didactic teaching passages teach, and use allegorical interpretations of apocalyptic literature to back up your interpretation. Not to take anything from apocalyptic literature in scripture, but these passages can be interpreted numerous ways.

Can you reconcile pre-trib with II Thessalonians 1, where the church is still here when Jesus returns and executes vengence on them that believe not? How could that passage possibly be reconciled with pre-trib?

I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at the parousia, the coming of Christ. In II Thessalonians 2, 'that wicked' is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's parousia. How is this reconcilable with pre-trib? How could the man of sin do all the things he will do BEFORE the rapture if he is destroyed at the parousia, and the rapture also occurs at the parousia? Deal with the plain, straightforward passages first, before coming up with allegorical interpretations of Revelation.

We both believe Jesus returns after the trib.
Some of your verses are that coming.

To say that is all there is,is to go against the bible.
(The coming on white horses IS NOT Jesus sitting on a cloud or acts one.)You actually need that dynamic to be true....No way is it even possible. You can not POSSIBLY force fit it honestly. No possible way.

You have yet to unpack Jesus on a cloud in rev. 14. Or " like manner" in acts 1.

Not to mention Mat 24 with Jesus using 2 pretrib dynamics with Noah and Lot.

Btw. It was you that invoked the " wheat/ grapes" analogy.

I do not follow your argument here. I am unaware of any verses about Christ 'sitting on' a cloud. Why would "He cometh with clouds' precludes the possibility of His riding a horse?

Do you have any reason to believe that flying horses repel clouds. I've never seen clouds move away from a flying horse. I have no reason to think that both cannot be present.

And I see no reason from scripture for there to be multiple second comings of Christ. It's an unreasonable position. Paul refers to the 'parousia', not multiple parousia's. The rapture occurs at the parousia. That wicked is destroyed at the brighteness of Christ's parousia.



In Acts 1, Jesus did not go up half way, come down for seven years, then ascend again.


This is a reference to what happens AFTER the tribulation in that passage. read my previous post.



Grapes are associated with blood. There is a harvest of grain at the end of the age in one of the parables in Matthew.

I'm counting two " fors" and one " against" typologies.

"""In Acts 1, Jesus did not go up half way, come down for seven years, then ascend again."""

Way off the topic
Try looking at "like manner"
You have Jesus in the example of the angels coming with billions of saints blackening the sky to conquor in war with billions of white horses.

That is the 2nd coming on horses AFTER the GT.

The depiction of the angels makes that impossible.

Left by himself
Returns by himself....like manner.
Left as a groom taken away
Returns as a groom for his bride.
Left in peace no war no killing ...returns in like manner
Left with no horses
Returns with no horses.

You literally have to ignore all that.

I like what my bible says.
It says like manner.

But Postribs ignore so much.
Why?

There is the sound of an archangel when Christ returns. The Bible also says He returns with angels, and with ten thousands of his saints. Paul clarifies that they that are Christ's meet the Lord in the air. The Bible does not talk about multiple comings of Christ, over and over again. Paul was waiting for the coming of Christ. Where is there any reference to Jesus coming back multiple times? Where is the pre-trib rapture event described in any passage that lays out a sequence? It is not in Revelation or Matthew 24. Why would the passage skip over such a big event if Jesus is going to come back more than once? Why doesn't the Bible teach that Jesus comes back multiple times if this is the case? If it does, show us some scripture that actually teaches this?

What I don't get is why you believe in pretrib if the best argument you can come up with is the kind of stuff listed above or the idea that 'not appointed unto wrath' does not allow for the saints to be on the earth. The Bible does not indicate that God is angry with the tribulational saints.

There is the sound of an archangel when Christ returns. The Bible also says He returns with angels, and with ten thousands of his saints. Paul clarifies that they that are Christ's meet the Lord in the air. The Bible does not talk about multiple comings of Christ, over and over again. Paul was waiting for the coming of Christ. Where is there any reference to Jesus coming back multiple times? Where is the pre-trib rapture event described in any passage that lays out a sequence? It is not in Revelation or Matthew 24. Why would the passage skip over such a big event if Jesus is going to come back more than once? Why doesn't the Bible teach that Jesus comes back multiple times if this is the case? If it does, show us some scripture that actually teaches this?

What I don't get is why you believe in pretrib if the best argument you can come up with is the kind of stuff listed above or the idea that 'not appointed unto wrath' does not allow for the saints to be on the earth. The Bible does not indicate that God is angry with the tribulational saints.

I praise GOD man (me in that) has no say in this. I blindly take what Christ said and .. thats it. He will come take us receive us unto Him self so where He is THERE we will be. He said you know WHERE I am going you know how.

So where I am there you will be. Me? Man I will have my eyes on only HIM!

I think the whole Bible tells the same story. As you've said. There is one return of Jesus.
Pop-Christianity doesn't encourage Christians to look for the 2nd coming. Just to escape tribulation.
That's not the message the prophets, Jesus or the apostles gave us.

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin,
but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of damnation.

The deliverer is coming!! But before deliverance, the enemy attacks. As in EVERY pattern of Biblical prophecy.
The plagues are poured out on Egypt before the deliverance from Pharaoh.
After the last plague he draws pharaoh out. This mirrors Armageddon.
God isn't unable to protect one group while he pours his wrath out on another one.

Psalm 91:7
A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

Amazingly Jesus uses prejudgement examples.

Noah
Lot

But we also have the baby Jesus.

All three removed prejudgement.

The models we do have of " going through" are Israel.
The fiery furnace is a vivid picture of ISRAEL going through the GT.

The plagues of Egypt the same deal.

Pssssst...that is why it is called " Jacobs/ Israels" trouble.
That is why ONLY JEWS are sealed against the flying scorpions.

That is why ONLY JEWS are ushered into safety with the devil in pursuit.

Note the similarity.
Pharaoh dying in the water.( swallowed by Gods flood)

In rev a flood is sent to destroy the Jews. (The earth swallowed the flood)

Jacobs trouble
The church removed
Jacobs trouble begins.

Jacobs trouble has zero to do with the church.

The time of the gentile ends. Jacobs trouble begins.

That is why ps 91 is REMOVED concerning the church.

The AC receives power to overcome the saints.
He kills every last one of them.
No ps 91. They are all martyred.

All the apostles save John were all martyrs.
No ps 91 at martyrdom.
No ps 91 for Christians during the GT.

The church age ends.
Jacobs trouble begins.

I praise GOD man (me in that) has no say in this. I blindly take what Christ said and .. thats it. He will come take us receive us unto Him self so where He is THERE we will be. He said you know WHERE I am going you know how.

So where I am there you will be. Me? Man I will have my eyes on only HIM!

All I see is a lot of presumption there. False narratives with not a single scripture to back any of it up.

Indeed. When he comes he is revealing himself. You will be with him where he is right here in his Kingdom on earth.

2 Thes 1

6 God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you

7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marvelled at among all those who have believed.
This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.