Scriptural Authority .
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Simply letting go of preconceived notions handed down by grandpa and bishop so-and-so and doing a good old fashioned Bible study would go a long way in clearing up confusions. We would read of apostacies and falling away and being cast forth. Jesus will not forsake us, but many will leave and walk no more with Him. Jesus will not lock anyone up in a canary cage. Jesus will not force Prodigal Sons to stay home (or to come back after they have left.)
This is all Biblical. Makes no difference whether it is a hard or an easy pill to swallow.
This is all Biblical. Makes no difference whether it is a hard or an easy pill to swallow.
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Is your comment in relation to Calvinism? Many think that that Calvinsims main thrust is 'Eternal security 'or OSAS . But this i believe is a smokes screen . In all practical purposes Calvinsm plays out like Arminianism..Meaning it professes eternal security but this is based on Thier version of 'election '. So its OSAS based on IF they can know if they are one of the 'elect' . They can't go to any scripture to know if Jesus has died for them . ( As Jesus hasn't died for all in their system ) So apart from Their ' experience ' and works they have to ' endure to the end '
L
In scripture, Christ is the Bridegroom, and the church is his bride.
Does Christ take his bride apart from her own free will?
How would that be anything less than abduction?
To answer your question, God strives with us via his Spirit, and then we either resist or submit to such strivings.
God is definitely the initiator, but we must consent of our own free wills.
We see a rather clear-cut example of what I'm saying here:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37)
"How often would I have gathered your children together" shows us the will of Christ.
"And ye would not!" shows us the will of the people.
Can it get any simpler than this?
Does Christ take his bride apart from her own free will?
How would that be anything less than abduction?
To answer your question, God strives with us via his Spirit, and then we either resist or submit to such strivings.
God is definitely the initiator, but we must consent of our own free wills.
We see a rather clear-cut example of what I'm saying here:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37)
"How often would I have gathered your children together" shows us the will of Christ.
"And ye would not!" shows us the will of the people.
Can it get any simpler than this?
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"Choosing to accept salvation, is not saving that we are saving our own selves like Calvinists would have people to believe"
like Pelagians believe. i'm not a Calvinist; i'm not a Pelagian. God is sovereign and knows all things at all times; God gave us free agency.
that is a deep, deep thing that Christians have been trying to fathom for 2,000 years, and Jews for thousands of years before us. it is not going to be solved in a forum thread, and neither i nor anyone else here understands it.
i won't pretend.
so the reason i put my 2¢ in in threads like this isn't to promote some popular theology -- but to put to rest the idea that 'there's no scriptural authority' for reformed theology. there is. and there is scriptural authority to put down also the idea that mankind has no free will. both His absolute authority and decision over any individuals salvation and the individual responsibility and just condemnation or reward for faith and for what works follow are in the scripture. our depravity and our being held to account for it are there.
i seriously have never heard the claim that "adoption" means "becoming an adult" before -- and i'm interested in seeing evidence for that. i have not been alive a very long time, but enough to know that words can be spun and weird things that really have no basis in reality can sure be convincingly argued to be. that's all; i don't know the solution to free-will/predestination, and i don't know whether Paul is using a weird idiom that most of the church isn't aware of & totally changes the perspective of a literal reading of our translations. it wouldn't be the firs thing that most of today's church gets terribly wrong, and it wouldn't be the first thing that English translations don't really fully convey.
like Pelagians believe. i'm not a Calvinist; i'm not a Pelagian. God is sovereign and knows all things at all times; God gave us free agency.
that is a deep, deep thing that Christians have been trying to fathom for 2,000 years, and Jews for thousands of years before us. it is not going to be solved in a forum thread, and neither i nor anyone else here understands it.
i won't pretend.
so the reason i put my 2¢ in in threads like this isn't to promote some popular theology -- but to put to rest the idea that 'there's no scriptural authority' for reformed theology. there is. and there is scriptural authority to put down also the idea that mankind has no free will. both His absolute authority and decision over any individuals salvation and the individual responsibility and just condemnation or reward for faith and for what works follow are in the scripture. our depravity and our being held to account for it are there.
i seriously have never heard the claim that "adoption" means "becoming an adult" before -- and i'm interested in seeing evidence for that. i have not been alive a very long time, but enough to know that words can be spun and weird things that really have no basis in reality can sure be convincingly argued to be. that's all; i don't know the solution to free-will/predestination, and i don't know whether Paul is using a weird idiom that most of the church isn't aware of & totally changes the perspective of a literal reading of our translations. it wouldn't be the firs thing that most of today's church gets terribly wrong, and it wouldn't be the first thing that English translations don't really fully convey.
Maybe I worded that poorly or something...IDK...it happens...lol
Anyways, I don't know anyone who thinks they saved themselves. However, that is one of the straw men a Calvinist will use. They say if you think you have free will then you must have saved yourself or are worshipping you own will...which is completely false and ridiculous...makes no sense at all.
I'm not either.
To be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about with the whole adoption meaning becoming an adult thing. Probably something I should study, though.
Anyways, I don't know anyone who thinks they saved themselves. However, that is one of the straw men a Calvinist will use. They say if you think you have free will then you must have saved yourself or are worshipping you own will...which is completely false and ridiculous...makes no sense at all.
I'm not either.
To be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about with the whole adoption meaning becoming an adult thing. Probably something I should study, though.
Are you sure you want to use these?...
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph 1:11)
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)
Seems like only Eph 1:5 gives the Arminian a leg to stand on.
Rom 8:23 seems immaterial to the discussion.
Eph 1:11 and Rom 8:29-30 counters your position.
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph 1:11)
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)
Seems like only Eph 1:5 gives the Arminian a leg to stand on.
Rom 8:23 seems immaterial to the discussion.
Eph 1:11 and Rom 8:29-30 counters your position.
