Justification ongoing?

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ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#1
Apr 21, 2021
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#1
It's commonly thought that "justification" (to make just or innocent) is a one-time thing; this has always been my view. However, something in James jumped out at me a couple of days ago which I've been thinking about ever since:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:24

Works are ongoing; they are an indicator of our faith. Therefore it stands to reason that justification is ongoing, not just a one-time thing. This creates quite the dilemma for the once saved, always saved doctrine.

I would love to be proven wrong about this. What else could it mean?
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#2
Jul 2, 2011
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God has begun a work in each of us, not we.. It will not, cannot, be completed until His Day. We do not appoint that day, He does

On that wonderful day, when He completes His work in each of us, we shall be perfect, so YES, you have explained it well, and it is wonderful. God bless you.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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ResidentAlien said:
Works are ongoing; they are an indicator of our faith. Therefore it stands to reason that justification is ongoing, not just a one-time thing.
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Not really. Good works simply follow justification, which -- if you carefully examine the teaching -- cannot be anything other than a one-time act of God. See Romans 4 and 5.

Too many have a tendency to confuse justification and sanctification (on-going). But we need to be clear about this things.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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When we read His Word, we learn that the work is begun by God within us and not completed until His Day.

Until then our faith is known by our works. Works are not conceived in us, rather a gift from our Maker, not to be confused. as so many are, with earning salvation. We simply avail ourselves to His will and do as He directs us.
 
T

throughfaith

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#5
Aug 4, 2020
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#5
ResidentAlien said:
It's commonly thought that "justification" (to make just or innocent) is a one-time thing; this has always been my view. However, something in James jumped out at me a couple of days ago which I've been thinking about ever since:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:24

Works are ongoing; they are an indicator of our faith. Therefore it stands to reason that justification is ongoing, not just a one-time thing. This creates quite the dilemma for the once saved, always saved doctrine.

I would love to be proven wrong about this. What else could it mean?
Click to expand...
Yes Justified by Faith alone is for the Church age . James is not applying that verse to the Church age .
James 1
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 
T

throughfaith

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#6
Aug 4, 2020
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#6
ResidentAlien said:
It's commonly thought that "justification" (to make just or innocent) is a one-time thing; this has always been my view. However, something in James jumped out at me a couple of days ago which I've been thinking about ever since:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:24

Works are ongoing; they are an indicator of our faith. Therefore it stands to reason that justification is ongoing, not just a one-time thing. This creates quite the dilemma for the once saved, always saved doctrine.

I would love to be proven wrong about this. What else could it mean?
Click to expand...
This is a perfect example of the trap of Lordship salvation on the church age believer today . Before the cross its Justification by faith and works. During the tribulation it will be the same again . During the Church age its faith alone .
 
T

throughfaith

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#7
Aug 4, 2020
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#7
JaumeJ said:
When we read His Word, we learn that the work is begun by God within us and not completed until His Day.

Until then our faith is known by our works. Works are not conceived in us, rather a gift from our Maker, not to be confused. as so many are, with earning salvation. We simply avail ourselves to His will and do as He directs us.
Click to expand...
But James isn't saying that . He's literally saying faith and works Justifys.
 
T

throughfaith

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Nehemiah6 said:
Not really. Good works simply follow justification, which -- if you carefully examine the teaching -- cannot be anything other than a one-time act of God. See Romans 4 and 5.

Too many have a tendency to confuse justification and sanctification (on-going). But we need to be clear about this things.
Click to expand...
James is saying to his audience ( James 1.1) that its faith and works that Justifies . Rom 4 and 5 is a different matter. There not the same context.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#9
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#9
ResidentAlien said:
It's commonly thought that "justification" (to make just or innocent) is a one-time thing; this has always been my view. However, something in James jumped out at me a couple of days ago which I've been thinking about ever since:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:24

Works are ongoing; they are an indicator of our faith. Therefore it stands to reason that justification is ongoing, not just a one-time thing. This creates quite the dilemma for the once saved, always saved doctrine.

I would love to be proven wrong about this. What else could it mean?
Click to expand...
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (justified) is a one time thing and creates no dilemma for OSAS.
 
T

throughfaith

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#10
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#10
mailmandan said:
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (justified) is a one time thing and creates no dilemma for OSAS.
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Why do you think James didn't just plainly say what he meant, if he meant Faith evidenced by works ?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25¶Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26¶For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#12
#12
ResidentAlien said:
It's commonly thought that "justification" (to make just or innocent) is a one-time thing; this has always been my view. However, something in James jumped out at me a couple of days ago which I've been thinking about ever since:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:24

Works are ongoing; they are an indicator of our faith. Therefore it stands to reason that justification is ongoing, not just a one-time thing. This creates quite the dilemma for the once saved, always saved doctrine.

I would love to be proven wrong about this. What else could it mean?
Click to expand...
If you look at the context of James. He is talking to people who are hearers and no doers.

reading his initial statement, He asks the question. What does it benefit or prophet a person who CLAIMS to have faith yet has no works. Can that faith save them.

He is not talking about ongoing works. Or maintaining salvation. He is speaking to people who claim faith. Yet what they in reality have is mere belief (even demons believe yet tremble)

He did not contradict paul (romans 4) he is stating a fact paul made in eph 2. That those who are saved are saved for the works that they will do.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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throughfaith said:
Why do you think James didn't just plainly say what he meant, if he meant Faith evidenced by works ?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25¶Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26¶For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Click to expand...
The term “justified” has more than one meaning and the context determines which meaning, as I already explained in post #9.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

I already explained James 2:24 and you need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
 
T

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#14
mailmandan said:
The term “justified” has more than one meaning and the context determines which meaning, as I already explained in post #9.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

I already explained James 2:24 and you need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
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Would it be an issue if it really meant ( in James ) That faith had to be made perfect by works ? or that it was faith and works that justified. Like with Abraham and rehab. Meaning faith alone did not Justify ?
 
phil36

phil36

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I think we also have to realize what James is answering..what was his point! Along with the good answers above. James was making a contrast between those who think they have real faith... James was showing what real faith actually looks like and is.
 
T

throughfaith

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#16
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:2
I don't think this verse is not aimed at the body of Christ . For example I can see in the OT it would be faith and works . Not Just faith alone.
 
T

throughfaith

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#17
phil36 said:
I think we also have to realize what James is answering..what was his point! Along with the good answers above. James was making a contrast between those who think they have real faith... James was showing what real faith actually looks like and is.
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You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:24
So what's this ' justification ' here ?
 
phil36

phil36

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#18
throughfaith said:
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:2
I don't think this verse is not aimed at the body of Christ . For example I can see in the OT it would be faith and works . Not Just faith alone.
Click to expand...

That's correct you can't see because you look through the lense that only Paul's writings are for Christians so you discount everything else.

My own faith is not on its on it produces works that prove faith... and yes -

I am saved by Grace alone, Through Faith alone, In Christ alone, According to Scripture alone, For God's Glory alone.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#19
throughfaith said:
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."—James 2:24
So what's this ' justification ' here ?
Click to expand...
James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains “alone” - barren of works (James 2:14) and not authentic faith that trusts in Jesus Christ “alone” for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence the confusion for some when they see the word “alone” in James 2:24, which leads to the faulty conclusion that man is saved by both faith and works.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#20
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous (Romans 4:2-3) but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
 
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