Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

As I said, there is no such person as a carnal believer. Either the person is a born again, transformed, genuinely converted believer, or he still an unbeliever still in his sins. Everyone of us has faults and failings, therefore any "holier than thou' pelican can accuse any of us in his arrogance of being carnal Christians, but he would have a great log of pride of personal perfection in his own eye.

If a person says he is a born-again Christian and still practicing sin and iniquity as a lifestyle, then he is deceiving himself. The fruit of being genuinely converted to Christ shows in the transformed life. Just joining a church, praying a short 'sinners' prayer, putting on the Sunday suit, making a religious show in front of fellow church-goers, talking the talk, are not evidence of true conversion to Christ.

It is true that out of all the multitudes who went forward in his crusades and made a "decision" for Christ, statistically less than 5% went on to be genuinely converted Christian believers in the long term.

Anybody can say they are a Christian, but that does not necessarily prove that they actually are.

The principle is still the same. Jesus said that anyone who puts his hand to the plough and then looking back is not fit for the kingdom of God. Paul says that we are in a race and those who get to the finish line get the prize.

A person who says that the has "Jesus in his heart" and is ruled by the works of the flesh, deceives himself and the truth is not in him.

A genuinely converted Christian is one who shows it out in a transformed life. If the life is not transformed and the works of the flesh are a feature in his life, he is just giving lip service to the faith and is pretending to be Christian and if he rolls up to church and puts on a show of religion then he is a hypocrite and not a true believer.

It is true that all through the centuries there were those who were genuine believers who gave lip service to Rome but put their faith in Christ. We know about the ones who were more vocal in their faith and trust in Christ and most of them ended their lives being burned at the stake. Foxe's Book of Martyrs details that.

Your last sentence is absolutely true.

In Romans, Paul says that the Mosaic Law is true and holy, and the failure of it to make people righteous was not because of the Law itself. It was because of the sinfulness of man that he could not keep the Law. I separate the Jewish ceremonial laws from the basic "moral" law of God summarized in the Ten Commandments. I believe that the Ten Commandments still hold good for us in the same way that it was a requirement for the Jews. I am not wanting to start a new debate on Law and faith here because it would not be relevant. But I put it forward as an example of why the gifts of the Spirit are not generally manifested in our churches.

It is not that the Holy Spirit is any different in the way He works with true believers to when He worked with 1st Century believers. Jesus has never changed. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore the Holy Spirit has never changed and He could be said to be the same yesterday, today and forever as well.

So, if the Holy Spirit and His gifts have never changed in the way He wants to work with the church, what has changed?

The church has changed in a way that quenches and grieves the Spirit. While the church allows cessationism, unbelief, hypocrisy in "Sunday" Christians, unholy living, liberalism, modernist (virgin-birth, personality of God, resurrection of Christ denying), denominational exclusivism, the Holy Spirit cannot manifest Himself freely. He does not fellowship with darkness, and while churches have the prominence of the works of the flesh in them, especially corrupting the leadership, we won't see the gifts of the Spirit manifesting in them.

Seeing someone trying to scrape the bottom of the ideas barrel to try and disprove the modern application of the gift of tongues is such a bore that I can't be bothered commenting any further on it.

Because signs are an essential feature of the gospel of the kingdom, Matthew 10:5-8

So if you believe that the gospel of the kingdom is still valid now, then you will naturally be a continualist.

Even continualists would agree with you that tongues as a known language have clearly stopped, they are no longer being given to the body of Christ as a gift.

Otherwise, foreign missionaries would not have to bother learning new languages, but just keep pleading to God for that gift.

But because they redefine tongues as something else, it allows them to believe that it never stopped.

you are just ignorant. And I am ok with that.

Here is what you said that I then responded to. :

"There are many things in the bible that were not taught but clearly seen. "

I find this sentence rather interesting. The Hebrews noticed that the supernatural falling of the manna stopped when they began eating of the food from the promised land. There was no mention from scripture that it was about to end, it just stopped without an official notice. Joshua 5:12

The same is true of tongues (your presupposition) and the other supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It was meant for a time and that time is over, no need to be "taught" by the bible but "clearly seen".

If you were honest with yourself you could "clearly" see this. (insult )


To help you out you are asserting that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit just suddenly stopped without notice. You say it was mentioned time and time again, where? Not in the word of God. YOu suggest it is clearly seen if I was honest I too would see it, you said.

The truth is you have a bias that causes you to see it, and your assertion is unbiblical. Your issue is with 1Corthinaians chapters 12 through 14.
Known as unit chapters where the context is fully seen. You can please provide for me where they have stopped or where in the Word of God does it say they are no longer for today?

You can not, so you have this false allegorical thought of how the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped. If only you could show this Biblically without insults would be impressive. As I said, you are ignorant and I am ok with that.

The gospel of the Kingdom is from the King.

If Paul got his Gospel from the Holy Spirit, then it came from the same Person whom the Holy Spirit represented as the Gospel of the Kingdom. Because the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict Jesus, then the Gospel that Jesus taught has to be exactly the same as what Paul preached.

(Just to be annoying! )

the Gospel of the Kingdom is Eternal life Because Gods Kingdom never ends. Jesus' Gospel message is Beleive In HIM

He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one goes unto the Father but by Him. The Father is eternal Jesus is the Way to eternal Life.

That is the Gospel message the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dead right!

As I said to PaulC, if you believe the gospel of the Kingdom is still valid today, than naturally you would also believe that signs and wonders are still for today.

Gospel of the Kingdom is where signs and wonders are displayed prominently. Israel was promised that when their King is finally here in the flesh, they will be able to recognize him with all the healings he would be doing, Luke 7

19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

None of your arguments are actually sound. But whatever floats your boat.

In Acts 4, the Apostles prayed that they may speak the Word of God with boldness and that signs and wonders be done in the name of Jesus Christ. It says that they went out and preached the Word with signs and wonders following. Also, miracles were an integral part of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.

So, to limit signs and wonders to support the preaching of God's Word exclusively to Jesus' ministry is a misnomer and not consistent with what took place during the preaching of the Word of God after the ascension of Jesus.

Reading the Bible instead of giving your mans-wisdom opinions brings you closer to the truth. I don't know what Gospel you believe in or what Christ you follow but I don't believe it is the Gospel of Christ, or the Christ of the Bible. Maybe it is the Gospel and Christ of your own imagination.

You guessed it! I don't believe your opinion!

The 12 were preaching the gospel of the kingdom in Acts 4, so yes signs accompany them.

As for Paul, those signs were given to him during that time, so that his gospel of the uncircumcision, to the uncircumcised gentiles, is a valid one, from the view of the circumcised. (Acts 15:12)

I understand why you are a continualist now, you believe the gospel of the kingdom is still for today.

That is fine, we can agree to disagree.