50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but what really concerns me about it is the way the general population has lapped it up without the slightest question.

As I was always taught, Christ could return at any second, thus making preparedness an imperative. However, we don't need a pre-trib rapture to to goad us into being prepared; there's already another very good reason: No one knows when there number's up.

Sorry, MISSED IT AGAIN! The week begins with the first trumpet. The 5th trumpet may only be half way through the first half of the week. It is NOT THE MIDPOINT. The midpoint is marked with a 7: the 7th trumpet. There is proof of this.

Did you miss the "as it were?" They were not wearing crowns - it only LOOKED like it. Why not just take this as literal? They have a purpose: to PUNISH. Their still will hurt so much they want to die.

Finally? You missed the entire story!
John saw the throne and the Father on the throne, He saw the four Beasts, and He saw the 24 elders, but what he did NOT see was Jesus at the right hand of the Father. Take special note, because this book is HIS REVEALING!

Jesus asked me - I heard His words and His voice - He said that He had been back in heaven for years, and that there are over a dozen verses showing that He went to be at the right hand of the Father - and He reminded me that Stephen SAW HIM at the right hand of the Father. So He asked me, "why did John not immediately see me there?

Since Jesus is the One showing John the vision, we can know that John saw exactly what Jesus wanted Him to see - a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN. (Don't just ahead and show me that Jesus showed up later! We must consider TIME. )
No, wrong. This is eisegesis again. It is the throne room. There is nothing special about it EXCEPT the main character is MISSING!

Then Jesus mentioned the fact that in chapter 5 the Holy Spirit was there - but He said that He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. He reminded me that He had been ascended for many years. So He asked: WHY was the Holy Spirit there in chapter 4?

A slain lamb is DEAD and not standing. Perhaps He appeared to John the way He really looked after being whipped almost to death, then nailed to a cross, but alive once again.

Zechariah Chapter 14 Is The (Eternal Kingdom) "After" The Day Of The Lord In Fire And Final Judgement, The River Of Life Is Present

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I don't ignore them. I've posted plenty on those connections, also.

cv5's one video he posted had supplied a fairly good synopsis of those (how they are EQUIVALENT [SEALS = BoBPs], as I've been saying). I believe they are yet "FUTURE," due to the "SEQUENCE" and "chronology" issues in these related texts (like Lk21:12 making the point that "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth PANGS, the events surrounding "70ad" [vv.12-24a/b] must take place first [BEFORE ALL of those!! (... but not *immediately* before, though!)])


For example, of the 2nd SEAL "Wars," I've pointed out how Ezek39:7's wording corresponds with what Joseph did in the [approx] second year of his "SEVEN YEAR FAMINE," where Gen45:1 says, "And there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE *HIMSELF* KNOWN UNTO his brethren" (with Ezek39:7 saying, "So [/thus / in this way] will *I* MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"... ; see also Gen46:2 "IN THE NIGHT" [Dan7:7 also]... again, in relation to Joseph's "SEVEN YEAR FAMINE")... ; relating also to the Ezek38:18-19's "WRATH" words.

(Joseph's FIRST dream parallel Christ's FIRST advent [comp. Gen37:8 with Lk19:14 (also 1Sam8:7 / Acts3:24 = re: these "SUFFERING SERVANT" days [also in vv.13,26 per the Grk])]; his SECOND dream parallel the events surrounding Christ's SECOND advent [Rev12, and so forth])


I'm not neglecting the parallels / equivalents... I was merely (in these most recent posts) establishing its "ARRIVAL" point in time (Paul tells what that is, as I've stated... and this parallels SEAL #1 [the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that Jesus had also spoken of! Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "lest A CERTAIN ONE *deceive* you, FOR MANY shall come in My name saying..." (the *you* in this text is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," but those TO WHOM "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" WAS PROMISED--a consistent and "proleptic 'you'" throughout... and (in view of what I've already put) ALL of Matt24 is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"]).





We simply are not going to agree on this point.

I do not believe the SEALS / BEGINNING of birth PANGS have yet commenced, but WILL in the future, specific, LIMITED time-period we commonly call "the 7-yr Trib," aka the initial part of "the DOTL" time-period, aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, aka the "70th Week" (Dan9:27a[26b] "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"--parallel to other passages I've listed...)

THAT HIS AN EARTHY judgement ON the nations that ATTACK Israel and Jerusalem.

His final Judgment will be HIS JUDEMENT SEAT, and that is Spiritual. JUST BEFORE HE casts them in the Lake of Fire.

Here is your mistake, YOU DID NOT READ THE CONTEXT.

Zechariah 14:16-19 (HCSB)
16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
17 Should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, rain will not fall on them.
18 And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter, then rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague the LORD inflicts on the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

OPEN your eyes, there were will Survivors, therefore IT IS NOT HIS FINAL JUDGEMENT. THAT IS THE START OF HIS 1000 Year Reign from the Throne of David.

OPEN your eyes, there were will Survivors, therefore IT IS NOT HIS FINAL JUDGEMENT. THAT IS THE START OF HIS 1000 Year Reign from the Throne of David.

That is exactly what I was going to say. God willing he is going to pick up on this. Poor guy is pretty much a wreck.

OPEN your eyes, there were will Survivors, therefore IT IS NOT HIS FINAL JUDGEMENT. THAT IS THE START OF HIS 1000 Year Reign from the Throne of David.

OPEN your eyes, there were will Survivors, therefore IT IS NOT HIS FINAL JUDGEMENT. THAT IS THE START OF HIS 1000 Year Reign from the Throne of David.

OPEN your eyes, there were will Survivors, therefore IT IS NOT HIS FINAL JUDGEMENT. THAT IS THE START OF HIS 1000 Year Reign from the Throne of David.

I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but what really concerns me about it is the way the general population has lapped it up without the slightest question.

As I was always taught, Christ could return at any second, thus making preparedness an imperative. However, we don't need a pre-trib rapture to to goad us into being prepared; there's already another very good reason: No one knows when there number's up.

Jesus Is Gonna Redeem The Earth, By (Fire)!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

My dear friend I would venture to guess that your endless bold typed frantic fulminations are having pretty much zero effect on anybody on this thread.

You are just not making any sense buddy. I'm telling you as a friend I would type less and read more!

So you omit the rapture verses?

Pre-trib rapture has to be taught before it's understood because the Bible doesn't clearly teach it. It relies on people not having a very firm biblical foundation before being indoctrinated into it. Once the snare is tight it blinds people with a pre-trib bias.

In this very thread we've witnessed pre-tribbers attempt to redefine greek words, say that God persecutes saints in the great tribulation, say that Christ returns 3 or 4 times, say God is going to bring back animal sacrifices for sin offerings, and call those who oppose them false Christians destined for hell. That's the kind of nonsense going on here. They flatly reject all God-given scripture that proves them wrong.

Once the pre-trib rapture is actually scrutinized with the Bible it becomes evident that there is no Biblical foundation for it. All honest studies about the great tribulation, return of Christ, rapture, day of wrath, resurrection can all be proven to occur at the time of Christ's return or shortly after.

Conclusively it's always been post-trib. Thats just the truth the Bible shows us.

Many suggest that Jesus Christ is going to return to earth, taking a throne of King David?

The scripture below warns believers against this false teaching, and the walk on christ, Jesus Christ wont be found any place upon this earth.

However the (Antichrist/Beast/Man of Sin) will, proclaiming to be Messiah to the Jews in Jerusalem and Jesus Christ returned to the apostate church.

Believe It Not, Go Not Forth!

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.