By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

Lol, then further discussion wth you about this thread is irrelevant !

You ignored me.

One example of what you posted with no context

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

seems conditionless as if gift means you need do nothing but this is what is omitted which gives understanding to the single verse out of context


“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-18, 20-22‬ ‭

the context changes everything you can see the final verse

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I’m only willing to accept that verse I can make it mean anything but if I take it in context of what Paul’s saying it comes with understanding

“the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”


This isn’t meant to be taken out of context to support a contrary idea but in context which gives it understanding .

or another example if I only allow this wuote it seems as if good works have no place with us

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

almost like trying to do good is a bad thing but the very next verse changes that understanding

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


When you say saved by grace it looks like this if it’s Gods grace

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods grace teaches repentance and righteousness and teaches us to love good works hate sin and walk in the word of God but not begrudgingly

then there’s a distorted grave that removes repentance and allows for sinners to enjoy thier sin worry free

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just like the ot if we don’t turn to him in truth we’re going the wrong direction

Yes you have !

or is God telling man the truth about a terrible day coming so believers can respond and escape ? Keep
In mind Paul’s written this to the church

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God isn’t causing anyone to go to hell he’s telling us about it so we don’t go there it’s up to us to respond to the savior and escape the day above . He doesn’t save people who choose to live in sin he’s calling them out of it so they don’t have to face the judgement

we can repent and be forgiven now and have our sins remitted through christ. It’s not Gods fault that man brought sin and death upon ourselves , he has been telling us how to be saved for a very long time but no matter how we look at it we have to believe what he said about salvation he’s the only mediator who can give us a relationship with God there’s no other way but to go through Jesus and his word

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods wrath is upon the world and all in the world , and his gospel is preached in the world for salvation from the wrath to come as shown above but more so driven home here

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s more like there’s a flood coming that’s going to drown the earth because of evil and God has now told us that it’s coming , and he told us how to be saved and avoid drowning and said believe and be saved from the terrible flood coming on the world

Gods the same as then he’s telling us the truth about eternal life the issue is so few are willing to believe what he said about it . He does t have a bludgeon and doesn’t make threats we’re under a huge gigantic bludgeon in satans hand and God is offering us an escape into glory but we have to accept his version of salvstion because that’s the truth

Your emphatic insistence does not make it so.

When anyone provides Scripture which refutes your dogma, rather than address the truth as shown in Scripture, you claim:


Everyone understands your assertions ... we are not confused ... you have not been ignored ... what you have posted has not gone over anyone's head ... we have paid attention to what you have posted ...

Rather than your empty claims that you are misunderstood ... ignored ... have superior understanding ... why don't you address the Scripture which has revealed that your assertions have no basis in the truth of Scripture? ... hmmm? ... what's up with that?

Yes, we must believe on Him Who justifies the ungodly ... our faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Nope. You have not given any reason why you disagree with me and/or others who have replied to your dogma. You ignore Scripture provided by myself and others and claim you are ignored ... or we don't understand ... or we're confused ... or your wisdom is so far above our ability to comprehend ...

God's GOODNESS is what leads men to repentance ... preach God's GOODNESS. What all happens who reject His goodness maybe so we are told to preach the GOOD news, not the bad news.

Nope. You have not given any reason why you disagree with me and/or others who have replied to your dogma. You ignore Scripture provided by myself and others and claim you are ignored ... or we don't understand ... or we're confused ... or your wisdom is so far above our ability to comprehend ...

The reasons why I disagree with you is because you disagree with what I posted already to prove my points.

Sinners who Christ died for, His Sheep/Elect, before they believe, God by Christs death for them has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That word propitiation hilasmos:

a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,

removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.nal

I understand that is your claim. However, the first Scripture reference in your OP does not confirm your assertion.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

All born again believers begin their lives in this world as "dead in trespasses and sins" living our lives "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

All born again believers were at one point the children of wrath, even as others (i.e. unbelievers).

I know that your dogma teaches you that you were somehow separate from the "children of disobedience" because you have been taught that you were "elect" from before the foundation of the world.

However, newsflash ... until you are born again, there is no difference between you and the "children of disobedience".

Again, I reiterate, God's desire is as follows: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die (Ez 33:11).

God's desire is that the wicked turn from his way and live. The wicked must turn from his evil way.

Your claim is that if the wicked is one of God's "elect", that wicked one is not under God's wrath. However, Ez 33:11 states that the wicked one must turn from his way. God does not turn the wicked one ... the wicked one turns..


Having said that, we also know that it is God's lovingkindness that draws us to Him:

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Your points do not prove anything. Your surmisings have no basis in Truth. You have been shown that your dogma does not align with Scripture.

According to Vine's Expository Dictionary:






Christ's death was not a "propitiation Godward" (i.e. from man to God).

Again, from Vines:



Nor is Christ's death limited to those you have decided He died for.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Again, from Vines:



When God says the whole world, God means the whole world.

The Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for the whole world. In offering Himself as a sacrifice, His life was sufficient to cover every single person who has ever been born ... from time of Adam to now to future born children.

That is the value of His sacrifice.

Nothing here changes the fact that the elect children of wrath are never under God's wrath, but always under His Mercy!

Israel under Moses was God's "elect", yet they suffered His wrath.

Your premise is simply wrong.