Sinful lust or normally functioning hormones?

In light of another recent thread and the responses to it, I was recently chatting with one of my friends and mentioned that Christians rarely explicitly distinguish between lust as a sin and a normally functioning sex drive that is just part of being human. I think this hits Christian singles especially hard since we have no biblically legitimate outlet for having sex while we're single even if / when we have the biological urges to do so.

I suggested to my friend that this was possibly the most important discussion for Christian singles that churches never have, so let's have it here.

• What's the difference between our sex drives and lust? How do we know when we're crossing the line into sin in our thoughts and attitudes about sex?
• What support can / should be offered for Christian singles when dealing with the frustration of wanting all the benefits of marriage but being unable to find a suitable marriage partner? Should this include some practical reality checks when said singles are being too picky about unimportant things?
• How should a distinction between lust and properly framed sexual desire influence our behavior towards dates and potential dates?

Please excuse my plainness of speech, but, in my estimation which is based upon both scripture and experience, there is no difference at all.

Why do I say this?

Well, for starters, there's a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between a man or woman having a "sex drive" and a husband or wife desiring to "make love" to their spouse. The first is sinful lust. The second is holy love.

If you (collectively...I'm not singling you out) are "driven" to have "sex" with someone, then you (ditto) need to question your own motives.

Are you just seeking carnal pleasure?

Do you want to lay your life down for the woman (I'm speaking specifically to men now) in the same manner in which Christ laid down his life for the church (Eph. 5:25)?

Do you want to sanctify or set her apart as holy unto the Lord via the washing of God's word (Eph. 5:26-27), or do you just want to "have sex" with her?

Do you want to nourish and cherish her as your own flesh (Eph. 5:28-29), or are you looking to say in your heart, "Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am"?

God ordained sexual relations to be between a husband and wife within the confines of marriage, and marriage has to do with a lot more than just "having sex" with someone.

Ladies, are you looking to submit yourselves unto that man as unto the Lord (Eph. 5:22-24), or are you just looking to experience some carnal pleasure?

Are you looking to reverence the man that you're "driven" to have "sex" with as the church reverences Christ (Eph. 5:33)?

I could go on and on, but these are some of the questions that those with "sex drives" need to be asking themselves honestly before the Lord.

What does reverence mean?

Fine, let's clarify terms. What's the difference between lust / sex drive and desire to make love to someone? And I think you touched on it before with the idea that it's the difference between wanting to have something for yourself and wanting to do something for someone else and have them as part of your life long term. But realistically most people have a desire for greater physical intimacy than is appropriate before they are married (I've even heard some speakers say that if this isn't an area of struggle the couple should rethink getting married because they don't seem to be very attracted to each other), so how do you in that case know if those desires are tending in a godly direction or a sinful direction (since we should also admit that marriage does not automatically sanctify all types and forms of sexual activity)?

Simply put....

Thoughts about having sex when not married is lust (sin).

Best way to deal with it....Rebuke the very thoughts of it as soon as it enters your mind.

Having a thought cross your mind is not sin, if you immediately rebuke it and repent (turn from it). However, dwelling upon any impure thought will become a sin and can take root in our hearts if we enable it or allow it.

We should never try to justify or normalize it or any other sin by referring to it as a natural or normal functioning sex drive. If we do so then we let it have power over us.

We are told to flee from youthful lusts....not try to justify them by referring to them as natural or normal.

Here is a list of Bible verses that deal with this specifically.

https://www.billkochman.com/VerseLists/verse404.html

A husband and wife are allowed to lust after each other and have recreational sex.

The commandment of coveting someone else's spouse only applies to someone else's spouse. You cannot covet what is already yours because spouses belong to each other.

Spouses shouldn't deprive each other sexually.
1 Corinthians 7:4-5
4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

It is better to just get married than burn (with sexual passion)
1 Corinthians 7:9
9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Amazing thread, Cinder!

And with that, I must immediately make a disclaimer apologizing to the long-term members here who have already read my stories dozens of times.

As I have mentioned several times before, I was brought up in a conservative Lutheran school in which the general gist about sex was, "Don't do it, don't think about, and for goodness sake, DON'T ask us about it!" I'm sure many parents would be relieved to hear this but sex was NEVER explained at any stage of my formal education in Christian school, unless it concerned all the passages people use to tell you that you were not so much as to even think about it (in a participation kind of way) until you got married.

Any parent who was hoping a Christian school the basics of the facts of life (so that they could avoid the awkwardness) would be sorely disappointed in my schools. I always get a kick out of people who ask, "Well what about..." (In other words, how much can I do physically do before it's technically considered a sin?) Because no one argues every point about what "does and doesn't count" like a group of hormone-laden teenagers at a conservative Lutheran high school!

And I'm certainly not saying in any way that what they taught us was wrong -- after all, no one can argue that it's not Biblical. However, my entire life's prayer has been to ask God how on earth we seem to get the transition from His commands to real life so terribly wrong, and what needs to be done in order to make this a more successful conjunction.

I was once friends with a girl who was the daughter of two prominent leaders in our church, but she hated people's judgments and figured she'd just go ahead and give them something to judge, since they insisted on doing so. I will never forget her telling me about her time of employment at the "local" strip club (conveniently an hour away, so patrons felt they were far away enough to be able to sneak in unnoticed by people they knew) -- and how many men she had seen from the church, some of them being top elders -- who walked into that club while she was working there. (She was a gorgeous girl and easily became a big draw there.)

She told me these men from church would walk in, not knowing she was there, would recognize her, feel convicted -- and then walk out. And she told me, "They should feel convicted of their own actions -- not because of me." Which begs the question -- if they had arrived on a night when she wasn't working, or if they wouldn't have seen at all her during their time there -- would they have stayed?

Someone here on CC, and I wish I could remember who it was in order to give them proper credit, very aptly pointed out that women in particular (though I know it can apply to any gender,) are expected to go "from virgin to vixen" in the matter of time it takes for the couple to say "I Do." They make their life vows in front of a pastor, then find themselves having private time together, being expected to suddenly know or be able to do anything and everything, and I can't think of a more poignant way to describe this phenomenon.

People are expected to go from NEVER thinking about sex their entire lives except as a passing curiosity (but don't you dare think about it too much or too far,) and then suddenly, marry another human being of a different gender and somehow automatically know what to do and how to make sure everyone involved winds up happy and satisfied -- instantly.

Even cooking, keeping a house and budget, or heck, riding a bike isn't instantaneous, so how could anyone expect that with sex? But no one tells anyone this, at least not that I have observed. No one tells you, it might not be so great, in fact, it might be downright lousy for a while until you both learn to communicate and work things out and figure out what works for you both, and that might take a very long time (what if it takes years? Are you willing to have the patience?) Because by then you're married, and there is simply no backing out.

I used to be part of the live chats here fairly often, and there were a few times where I'd wind up talking to a few very sweet, single Christian guys who wound up confessing that they were afraid to marry a "good, Christian girl" -- because, without getting into specifics in the conversation, they confessed that they had fantasies, curiosities, and interests that they were afraid a good, Christian wife would never agree to.

I can't help but think of a song that said (and I'll try to tone it down here) in which the (male) singer says he wants, "A lady in the parlor, and a (wild thing) in the bed." I think that's becoming very common even in Christian culture, because the world bombards us with so many outside ideas.

And I'm certainly not trying to peg this all on the guys here. Women often have so many outlandish romantic fantasies of expecting a husband to fulfill every checkbox on a long list of expectations that I don't even know where to begin as far as teaching anyone how to have actual realistic expectations.

Transitions like this have been the bane of my whole Christian existence. I have heard the playbook list of "by the rules" guidelines day in and day out for my entire life, and I don't know many other serious Christians who don't know those rules or haven't had them pounded into their heads on a regular basis.

Almost all of us who proclaim Christ knows what the Bible says about keeping sex within marriage.

But then why is it that we somehow seem to get the execution so, so wrong, and SO many Christian spouses are divorcing or suffering in silence due to neglect, despair, and dissatisfaction with their intimate lives?

Playing devil's advocate here to refine the conversation. IF what you say is accurate, then it follows that it's ok for the husband to have a similar attitude toward his wife as he has toward a porn star or prostitute (and there may have been cultures that more or less approved of that, but I'm not calling that Biblical). If marriage is just legalized lust and lust is sinful (but apparently unavoidable if we have to legalize a form of something sinful), then marriage (and sex) aren't really good gifts from a good God but evil aspects of our humanity that we should seek to purge (which has been the view of the church in some eras where the celebates were seen as the most holy and devoted to God, though behind closed doors they often weren't abstinate so good luck with that whole purging thing (which is pretty much what modern Christianity tells single Christians they should do)).

So while I will agree that spouses should feel sexual desire for each other and act on it; kind of the whole point of this thread is what is the difference between that legitimate sexual desire (which everything indicates starts before marriage) and the illegitimate sinful imitation of that desire?

I agree that we should never try to justify sin, even if it seems normal or everyone else is doing it. But I also know that many times sin is trying to fill legitimate desires and needs with the wrong thing. The question is where does the real legitimate desire end (and maybe what exactly is it since people say women give sex to get love) and sin/going after the wrong thing begin.

Correct. Lust before marriage is fornication. Lust for someone other than your wife is adultery.

A husband and wife lusting after each other is neither fornication nor adultery. Meaning that it's not a sin. That's why the Bible says to get married before having sex.

A desire to have sex isn't a sin. Those things can become sins if you cultivate them into lustful thoughts about people and sexually immoral actions.

I don't think the Bible ever actually says or demonstrates that desiring to have sex is a sin when it is isolated from lusting after people, fornication, or adultery.

If we continue to dwell on a subject such as sex then it will eventually take root and cause sin (lust).

And yes, as @Runningman posted, it is better to marry than to burn...

That doesn't mean that we should go out and marry just anyone so that we can have sex and fulfill sexual desires. This is something that we have to wait on the Lord for. We have to be patient and seek the Lord's will in our life. If not, we could end up in a living hell by marrying the wrong person.

We have to learn to walk with God at all times. In order to walk with God, we have to agree with God and his statues. We have to be dead to ourselves and alive to God in Jesus Christ.

This takes renewing of the mind and seeking after those things which are of the Spirit.

If we allow ourselves to dwell upon sexual drives or lusts, then this will lead to sin in one form or another.

The only way that I have found to deal with it....is like I said before...rebuke it as soon as it enters my mind and turn my thoughts over to God and his ways.

The more we train our mind (renew our mind) to deal with these issues by repenting and turning from them swiftly, then the easier it becomes to deal with them in time.

well, im going to go on a limb and say most christians actually arent stupid and know what the difference is.

in marriage, you can have sex to that person and only that person that belongs to you. Their body is yours as well. You look after that body and care for it.

If you are not married, then you dont, cos they dont belong to you and havent agreed to be bound to you. You keep your body to yourself and it belongs to God to use for His purposes.

whatever state you are in, God will sanctify it. You just ask Him. for example, if you are single its not likely you need drugs like viagra lol.

Sex drive... natural physical need. A gift. Consider it a locked treasure. Not for just anyone..... Lust, is in the mind. Says' I want, I can'.
Making love. The spirit wants to join a life partner to celebrate creation

Hi, Bellaberry.

First, here is the portion of scripture that I was referring to:

Ephesians chapter 5

[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[28] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

God ordained marriage to be a natural reflection of the spiritual union between Christ and the church.

With such being the case, the husband is called to love his wife and give himself for her in the same self-sacrificing way that Christ did for the church. He's also to sanctify and cleanse her with the word of God that she might appear one day as holy and without blemish before the Lord in the same manner in which Christ seeks to do for the church. Furthermore, he's to love his wife as his own body while nourishing her and cherishing her in the same manner in which Christ does for the church.

Let's pause here for a moment...

Does Christ selfishly lust after the church for his own carnal pleasures?

Of course, he doesn't, and neither should any man behave in that manner towards a woman. If that upsets any men here, then take it up with God...the one you claim to belong to and serve.

Moving on to the wife, she is called to submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ.

OF COURSE, this does NOT mean that she should ever submit to anything SINFUL that her husband is doing or attempting to do. I covered this rather extensively in a recent long post that can be read here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/should-women-teach-should-you.198735/#post-4547539

In relation to your question, a wife should also reverence her husband in the same manner in which the church should reverence Christ.

The underlying Greek word which is here (in the opening text) translated as "reverence" is "phobeō" (yes, like in phobia), and here is how it is translated in the KJV Bible:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5399&t=KJV

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to put to flight by terrifying (to scare away)
   1. to put to flight, to flee
   2. to fear, be afraid
      1. to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm
         1. of those startled by strange sights or occurrences
         2. of those struck with amazement
      2. to fear, be afraid of one
      3. to fear (i.e. hesitate) to do something (for fear of harm)
   3. to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

In this passage of scripture, the bold-faced definition would apply.

This is God's design for marriage, so I would heartily suggest that any man or woman with a "sex drive" put it in neutral as they concentrate on fulfilling their God-ordained roles within the confines of a marriage that represents Christ and the church to the world.

Simply put, the difference is selflessness (a man laying his life down for his wife as Christ does for the church) vs. selfishness (a man basically behaving as a "brute beast" or as a dog in heat). Although their God-ordained roles are different in relation to marriage, the same principle of selflessness vs. selfishness applies to women as well.

BELIEVE ME, I'm totally into realism, so let's get REALLY REAL.

My first question for anyone with a "sex drive" is this:

Have you ever looked at porn?

I did, and I can honestly say that I never had a "sex drive" prior to that.

I gave a bit of my own testimony in that regard previously on this forum. If anyone is interested in reading the same, then they can do so here:

https://christianchat.com/christian...ion-marriage-arrangement.198517/#post-4536696

If you have looked at porn, then confess it as sin before God, and ask him to purge your conscience from that dead work so that you might be able to serve him. If mere repentance/confession doesn't change things, then you should really consider that you may have yielded your members (eyes, other body parts...figure it out) as servants to demonic powers that you may need literal deliverance from. God's Spirit leads, and one of the fruits of his Spirit is temperance or self-control. If you're "driven" towards "sex", especially as someone who is unmarried, then you'd better check what "spirit" is "driving" you.

Porn or not, there are other variables which "drive" people to lust. I'm reminded of an incident at my friend's hair salon many years ago. As my friend was cutting my hair, he confessed to me that he had a terrible problem with lusting after his female employees. He told me that he loved his wife (and I know that he does...I've known them both for about 37 years now), and he didn't know what the problem was. Well, I didn't need to call Sherlock Holmes in order to give him some godly advice. Without exaggeration, EVERY SONG that played on his sound system in the salon was about something sexual.

It was like:

If you can't be with the one you love, then, honey, love the one you're with...

Let's spend the night together...

She's got the look...

If loving you is wrong, then I don't wanna be right...

Me and Mrs. Jones, we've got a thing going on...

Etc., etc., etc.

All literal lyrics from the types of music that he was subjecting himself to day after day after day after day.

Music is spiritual, and I'll tell you plainly that lyrics like those are DEMONICALLY-INSPIRED. If you want to subject yourself to something demonic all day long, then don't be surprised when you're "driven" to do something ungodly.

We're also BOMBARDED with sexual images everywhere...from billboards, to TV shows/commercials, to movies...and that doesn't even take into account the scantily clad women (or men, in fairness) who oftentimes parade around from place to place.

Then there are people who have suffered some sort of sexual trauma in their life that messes them up psychologically. My ex-wife, for example, was repeatedly sexually molested by her own father when she was 5 and 6 years old. I didn't learn about this until about a month or so after we were married, but, believe me, it created all sorts of sexual problems within her...and I say that with nothing but compassion towards her. Had I known about this before we were married, then I might be in jail right now. In other words, instead of asking her father for his daughter's hand in marriage, I might have ripped his testicles off and shoved them down his throat...and I'm an extremely non-violent man. Anyhow, I've personally met and counseled many people, both male and female, who have suffered some sort of sexual trauma which greatly affected their "sex drive"

Although this is not an exhaustive list, these are some REAL reasons why people have "sex drives" which simply aren't right in God's eyes.

Well, that depends upon what you mean by "lust". If you're referring to "desire", then that should also include a desire for her spiritual and emotional well-being. Again, this is the difference between "making love" to your wife as opposed to just "having sex" with her. If it's the latter and not the former, then what happens when she (or he, in the case of a wife with her husband) starts to lose her natural appeal? Do you dump her for the latest model? Unfortunately, many men (and women in relation to their husbands) do.

Again, if a couple marries simply due to "lust", then the partner's spiritual and emotional needs are not only not going to be met, but there's also a high probability of infidelity or divorce when someone more physically appealing comes along. Unless any of us are living under a rock, we know that these types of things transpire regularly, and God's not happy with it at all. Again, it totally misrepresents the spiritual union between Christ and the church that a marriage ought to reflect to the world.

Awkward or not, parents ought to train up their children in the way that they should go.

Although my marriage was basically a living nightmare, my ex OFTENTIMES taught our children about sexual matters (with me present...our two oldest are girls, so I thought it best for them to hear from her)...especially in relation to anyone possibly touching them improperly (even as her own father had done to her).

Lanolin and _____ sitting in a tree,
K-I-S-S-I-N-G...

And this is why Christians hide their struggles. Everything is a sin. So now if you're single and have a desire for sex you're a selfish sinner.
Sounds very much like what you'd expect to hear a pharisee say.

(Long answer ahead.)

It seems to me the difference comes down to what a person's motive is. Ain't y'all tired of hearing me say that? Is it selfish or selfless? I think we all need to figure out where that line is for ourselves, and I think everybody's personal answer will be something that can't be easily put into words.

(I can't find a delicate way to put this, but this is a rather indelicate topic cinder started so at least I can blame it on her...)
Is my focus on how she can please me, or on how I can learn to please her? The difference between a natural sex drive and sinful lust is the difference between "Sex is a wonderful thing we are exploring together" and "Sex is me getting pleasure, and if she does not give me the experience I expect she is doing something wrong and needs to improve."

I've never been there myself, so I don't know where I'll be drawing that line. But (assuming I meet a lady and we get to the point where we are seriously considering getting married) I know one question I'll ask myself as a place to start figuring out where the line is: "If I found out tomorrow that she had a medical condition that precluded sex, would I still marry her?"

And if my answer is "no" the second question I'd ask myself is something I picked up from a book, in a scene where a group of pirates is facing off against a group of nuns. The pirate leader comments in a suggestive manner that the men have been a long time without women. The most blunt of the nuns says, "Have they lost the use of their hands?"

(I sure am glad I can blame cinder for the indelicacy of this post.)

Beats me. Never been there. I could give advice, but it would probably be wrong.

I wouldn't even touch the topic until after we're engaged. Time enough to discuss stuff like that and how to handle finances and other critical topics after we've decided we're going to marry. If we're talking about sex before we even know we're going to marry, something done got real backward somewhere.