50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

I give a lot of lattitude towards the Church Fathers, since they were pioneers. It's sort of like those of us who live in the age of pioneering tech gadgets. We can be forgiven for not learning all of the new devices and their terminology, because of the explosion of new items, which are constantly in a state of flux.

The Church Fathers met head on issues that nobody had had to face before, matters like the Trinity--how do you describe "3 in 1?"

So I give them latitude. Generally, their work is outstanding. Having not developed a systematic theology they did incredible work defining orthodoxy as they went along.

Origen is called a "heretic," and yet much of his work is very gifted and true. He can be forgiven for his lack of orthodoxy and free creative expressions! Let the creative juices flow unimpeded, until it comes time to self-correct?

I 100% agree with your statement about Irenaeus and Hippolytus. They forecast Futurism in the Church, which has come to be as inconsistent in its eschatology as Irenaeus and Hippolytus were. Dispensationalism is Irenaeus' eschatology gone to seed!

No, this poster is just very confused about 1 THESS 4 and Rev 14.

I disagree. When Jesus comes back with his saints, that is the "first resurrection." Jesus comes back with departed Christians and OT saints. That's what the "Rapture" is!

Jude 1.14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

1 Thes 4.15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

A vision of Christ coming back on a horse, with an army following him on horses, could express angels coming with Jesus to defeat the Antichrist, and it doesn't really say much about a "catching up" of the Church. However, the victory expressed by this vision includes all the regalia of Christian voices shouting "Hallelujah" in heaven, indicating that the Church is participating in this event, in my opinion.

Rev 19.1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

Who says the rapture doesn't include Jesus on a white horse? Just because 1 Thess 4 doesn't mention a horse at all.

The point is that every mention of being caught up or gathering is a reference to what we call the rapture.

The real point is that NO rapture/caught up/gathering verse mentions anything about believers being taken to heaven.

That is missing from ALL rapture verses.

Yes, I actually have the departed in Christ in heaven *today.* They are with Christ in heaven *now.* So they will return with Christ when he descends from heaven, so that we all participate in establishing Christ's Kingdom on God's Millennial Earth.

There are a number of visions, and I don't believe they are chronologically ordered. I think, in fact, many of them are a prolepsis, indicating a picture of future glory as if it is taking place in the time of the one having the vision.

These visions, not being chronological, often express the same truth over and over, that Christ is coming. His coming is presented in a number of different ways, as victory over Antichrist, as the harvest of souls on earth, as the victory of the saints, etc. etc.

They do not reflect many comings of the Lord, not even several stages of his Coming. It's just an indication that all things in the present age will be summed up in one great coming on the last day of the age. Just my view, brother.

Hi RK,

I don't really see that at all as we discussed earlier.
I am not going to comb Thessalonians - surely this is enough:

1T1 2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers and sisters[b] loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The way I see it Paul teaches twice about the man of sin. Once privately and once publicly.
Because there is a deception in play, Paul cannot divulge a lot.
Therefore we see him only adumbrating something that he spoke about in much greater depth and clarity
to the Thessalonians when he was there in person.

The questions for me are the who, why, what of the deception,

lol, no it doesn't mean that:

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

G2332
Θεσσαλονίκη
Thessalonikē
thes-sal-on-ee'-kay
From Θεσσαλός Thessalos (a Thessalian) and G3529; Thessalonice, a place in Asia Minor: - Thessalonica.
Total KJV occurrences: 5

Which proves the resurrection happens in heaven so they resurrect and then follow Christ to the clouds where the living will be brought up to in the rapture.

I wonder why the name of a literal city in Asia Minor is so interesting??

randyk said:
Yes, I actually have the departed in Christ in heaven *today.* They are with Christ in heaven *now.* So they will return with Christ when he descends from heaven
No. You seem to have missed the words "today" and "now". rk was clearly saying that the departed in Christ are RIGHT NOW 6-21-21 are in heaven.

I've been making that point for some time. The VAST MAJORITY of the Bride of Christ will ALREADY be in heaven, because of physical death, by the time the Second Advent and rapture occurs.

But even if the resurrection/rapture should occur pretrib, so what? The number of dead believers will STILL BE THE VAST MAJORITY of all of the Bride of Christ when Christ BRINGS ALL OF THEM WITH HIM when He takes them to the clouds in the AIR (meaning in the earth's atmosphere) for their reception of resurrection bodies (imperishable bodies) and the living believers reception of their "changed bodies" (imperishable bodies).

I wonder why it isn't clearly obvious to everyone that over 2,000 years of the physical deaths of believers will have the VAST MAJORITY of the Church already in heaven by now.

And Jesus brings them ALL to earth's atmosphere when He comes to give them their imperishable bodies and gives the living believers their imperishable bodies.

It's a no brainer.

In their glorified bodies? IF so, THEN:
PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure IS First! Correct?

Since when?

1Th 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye
sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that JESUS Died and Rose again,
even so them also which SLEEP In JESUS Will God Bring with Him."

1Th 4:15 For THIS we say unto you By The WORD Of The LORD,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of The
LORD Shall Not prevent [Precede] them which Are ASLEEP!

1Th 4:16 For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with
a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of
God: and the dead [ASLEEP] in CHRIST SHALL RISE first:

1Th 4:17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be Caught
UP TOGETHER with THEM [NOW "awake!"] in the clouds, to meet
The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with The LORD.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with These WORDS!"

+ PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure:
1Co 15:51 "Behold, I shew you A MYSTERY; We
shall not all SLEEP, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last
trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead [ASLEEP]
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

------------------------------------------
Please STOP making stuff up...

And, THEN, Be Blessed!

You don't know what you are talking about.

The living are raptured up to be together with Christ and the resurrected saints that came with Him. The dead saints aren't brought up from the Earth because they are in heaven and Christ brings them with him! The Resurrection occurs in heaven not the Earth.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.


2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.


So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.




Since the Greek word G4862 "sun" means "union" the verse can be understood as:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to have union/be united with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That makes sense since Christ brings the resurrected with him from heaven and that the resurrection bodies are already in heaven according to Paul. There is nothing that places the resurrected dead on the Earth at the time of the rapture.

"...together [hama - adverb - 'at the same time'] with [syn] them [autois] will be caught away [verb - harpagēsometha]..."


...the verb must be attached with the adverb... meaning that the one component is "caught away [VERB-ACTIONed]" at the same time that the other component is also "caught away [VERB-ACTIONed]"

(it is ONE "SNATCH-ACTION" at the SAME TIME... for both components of the "ONE BODY")

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

I'm not sure what you mean here, but I take the classical position that Christ returns in a Postrib context, bringing back with him the departed, glorified saints. All Christians in this age, and all OT saints, are glorified, together with the departed, at once, at the 2nd Advent of Christ, on the Last Day of the age.

Then I assume the Premill position, that the Millennial Age begins, which I think consists of another 1000 years of mortal mankind living out current history, with the only change being that Satan and his forces are under judgment from the glorified saints, and kept in a bottomless pit throughout the Millennium.

Where the glorified saints are at this time I don't have a clue. I think we may perhaps remain in heaven with Christ until the end of the Millennium, when New Jerusalem descends from heaven to the New Earth.

Christ is depicted as returning to earth, with his saints, at this glorification event for the purpose of revealing to the world a new age, the Kingdom of Christ. How this takes place in detail I don't know.

1 Thess 4 contradicts this statement. You might want to retract your first statement above.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

This verse shows that Jesus brings with Him the believers who have already physically died.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

This verse shows that the order of receiving imperishable bodies; the dead first, followed by the living.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
.

The phrase "dead in Christ will rise first" refers to the bodies of the dead believers, who will be resurrected as imperishable bodies.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This verse shows that the living believers still on earth will be "caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". Jesus and the dead believers from heaven will be in the clouds when the living believers join them.

That's not what the verses say. They refer to our imperishable bodies of which are sourced from heaven, but given "in the clouds" in earth's atmosphere.

There are no verses that say that believers are given their imperishable bodies in heaven. And 1 Thess 4 clearly states WHEN the dead believers are given their imperishable bodies; in the clouds.

What you miss is the clear order of things. Dead in Christ first, and then 'we who are alive and remain' follow in reception of new imperishable bodies, all "in the clouds".

Right. In the clouds.

Has anyone argued this??

No. The new glorified body is given "in the clouds" in earth's atmosphere.

Are you aware that "mansion" in the Greek means 'room'? Not "body" as you are trying to imply.

Again, 1 Thess 4 shows that all believers will receive their glorified bodies "in the clouds".

It doesn't make sense to claim that the dead believers receive resurrection bodies in heaven, since 1 Thess 4 is clear about WHEN the dead believers get their new bodies by the words: the dead in Christ will rise first.

If the dead get their new bodies in heaven before the trip to earth, what on earth does "the dead in Christ will rise first"??

It' obviously describing the fact that the dead bodies will be "raised" from the ground but changed into immortality.

I do agree with you that the resurrection takes place in heaven. The words, however, can be misconstrued, because raising people who had lived on this earth sounds like the resurrection takes place on earth.

But yes, the glorified bodies are given in the clouds, where the departed saints are presently. The living are caught up to the clouds, together with them, so that all of us may receive our new bodies simultaneously, in a "moment of time," in the "twinkling of an eye."

And then we shall descend from heaven, in the same moment, revealing to the world a new age, free from Satanic rule. A new chief is over the tribe.

Who are th "mortal mankind"? The approx half of the current world's population. And since at the Second Advent all believers are glorified, that means those ruled on earth during the millennium are unbelievers that survived the Trib.

They will be part of Christ's Millennial kingdom, serving Him as He "rules the nations with an iron scepter. Rev 20:4 - I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

All this occurs on earth.

There are no verses that indicate that Jesus returns to heaven after the Second Advent, or that resurrected and raptured believers are taken to heaven. And, how could Christ "rule the nations" if He is in heaven, and not on earth?

What you are referring to here is the Second Advent. Not after the Millennium but to begin it, as "King of kings, and Lord of lords".

^ "... UNTO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (that's the destination point of this text... for both components of the "
Right.

"the dead shall be RAISED incorruptible...," not "raptured [caught up] in order to come into their incorruptible state"... NO.


(bodily raised out of their graves "incorruptible" i.e. with glorified/perfected bodies right then... before the "caught up together" action happens)

Don't forget 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 where God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in order to be resurrected first. Then we all together will meet the Lord in the air.

1 Corinthians 15 doesn't mention this specifically, but the inference I gather from 1 Thess. 4 is if those who are alive and remain are caught up in the air together with the resurrected saints then both groups are raptured.

That "WITH" word is "UNIONed-with [G4862]" and the means by which it happens is thus: "and SO / THUS / IN THIS MANNER shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"... how? By means of the "rapture / caught away [verb-action] TOGETHER / AT THE SAME TIME" (i.e. 'AS ONE'.. the 'ONE BODY'). IOW, the "rapture [-action]" is seemingly pre-requisite to the "shall God BRING with [UNIONed-WITH] Him"... same as we see expressed in Colossians 3:4 (same "UNIONed-with" word there), as I've mentioned in many past posts where you and I have discussed this point re: 1Th4:14 (just because they've DIED previous to this point, does not mean they'll be EXCLUDED from the "bring WITH Him" thing, and "how?"... here's how: the rapture event being the means by which the "UNIONed-with Him" thing occurs, and consequently the other thing may occur INCLUDING them, not EXCLUDING them).

(I do think it relates also to the "PRESENT" word in both Eph5:27 and 2Cor11:2--referring to a singular point in time [re: the "ONE BODY"]--when we're "raptured"... UNTO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR)



I'm not entirely sure if I'm mis-reading your point here ^ ... but (if you mean what I think you mean...)...

...right. Coz "caught up" and "raptured" means the same thing.