50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

God did not stop Daniel or Joseph from going through trials but God was with them and as a result their faith was tried and made stronger.
The wrath of God was shown on the Egyptians.
Exo 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
Exo 7:17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
Exo 7:18 And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.

Many of the plagues would have affected the Israelites. But in the same way that God could have protected, prepared and enabled His people to go through it, He will do the same at the end.

It takes more faith to believe that Jesus will bring us through the trials then to believe that He takes us out of the trials.
Jesus is the Blood that i can paint on my door posts, Jesus is the arc that will bring me through the flood. Jesus will walk with me in the fires.

don't think that you need to be taken away to be saved from His wrath. Jesus is the Key.

Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

Only if you don't know what you're talking about.....

Using OT accounts of Israelites to define the nature of the mystery of the Church revealed to Paul......is folly most grievous. A sure way to end up in the eschatological weeds....

See the sixth seal Rev 6:16.....
Satan's wrath is against Tribulation Saints and Israel BTW.
God's wrath is against everybody else.....

So - do you consider it a "shame" or a "waste" if you write a post that does not include "at least some of everything"...?

(haha - just teasing)

Scripture says his wrath is against Christians, all Christians, but not against Israel. Israel rejects Jesus and Satan likes that.

ignoring the old testament is a good way to be ignorant.
I see no account in all history where God secretly raptures his people away.
I see no evidence in all scripture. i have given so much scripture to show that we can, and will go through that tribulation time, old and new T. But you have already made up your mind.

That's where we disagree. Paul was not just referencing the *false claim,* but also the actual event, in which Christ is supposed to come on a literal, 24 hour day, to save his people. According to Dan 7, the Son of Man comes down from the clouds of heaven, to save his people from the Man of Sin, and to establish God's eternal Kingdom. That all takes place on *one day.*

Jesus referred to it as the "last day" of the age.

John 6.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

The problem was that Christians were erring by denying that there were any more antichrists to come, that Christ could come at any time, even today. They believed that somehow the Kingdom of Christ was being realized in their own cultic movement.

So yes, this is about a Christian error, and a Christian cult. But the error had nothing to do with their definition of the "day of the Lord" being any particular length of time. They all likely knew that Christ was coming on a single day, the last day of the age. Their error was in thinking that Christ could return before the Antichrist had been revealed and destroyed. In denying there were any more deceptions they themselves fell into a deception.

See my response to DWM. Quite simply, Jesus had told his Jewish disciples that lies would be told in the present era, trying to distract believers from the true Kingdom of God. Before the temple fell, those in Judaism were still proclaiming a false Messiah, who would deliver Jerusalem from the Romans. Jesus said that form of zealotry would fail.

Out among the Gentile Christians Paul ran into something similar. A cult group of Christians were claiming that the Kingdom of Christ was being realized in their own little cultic movement. Paul warned that this was the same kind of deception that Jesus warned about, false claims that the Kingdom has already come.

And so Paul argued that such deceptions will characterize this age all the way until the end of the age when Christ comes back to destroy Antichrist. We are not to believe any claim that the Kingdom is being realized before then.

Sorry, what I see it says, and what I believe, makes perfect sense to me. Adding the destruction of Antichrist along with the revelation of Antichrist is exactly what Paul means. It's exactly what he says.

I'm not adding anything! He simply states first of all that the Antichrist has to be revealed before he is destroyed. And then Paul makes it unmistakably clear that Christ comes *at the destruction of Antichrist.* I'm not making this up!

2 Thes 2.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Please notice in the bold that the revelation of Antichrist and the destruction of Antichrist both precede Christ's coming. And this is exactly as Daniel portrayed it in ch. 7. The Son of Man comes down from heaven after the reign of Antichrist and *at his destruction,* to set up God's eternal Kingdom, and to save his people. This is the pattern.

Not sure whether I have or not.

In a single post? Which post?

Do you or don't you want me to answer your question?

(that I was trying to answer)

They are not the same [thing] - but, they do go together.

That's right - same kind of body - and, [all] receive it at the same time.

No, the dead in Christ rise first which means they become immortal before the living are changed into immortals. It's not very far apart but also is not at the same time.

Christ Himself "dishes it out" - start with Revelation 6:16...

"wrath of the Lamb"

Thank you for confirming.

Especially since the first 3-5 of the 'Seals' have been "opened" already...

Good point.

Three separate accounts of the same singular discourse.

Not sure what you mean Gary

That doesn't hold though I am afraid.
The questions are different each time, the answer is different each time, and the location and interlocutors are different each time.

Unless you are saying that 2 out of Matthew, Mark and Luke were simply wholly inaccurate
which would be a very disturbing idea.