Neither James (the Lord’s brother), Barnabas, Timothy or Silvanus were counted among The Twelve...

No problem, I said why I am shure that Paul is the 12. Apostle. Revealation 21,14

Right. But only 12 of them received the Great Commission directly face to face from the Lord Jesus. I believe that is key.

The other 3 were picked by men.

He didn't receive the GC from the Lord. He was chosen by rolling the dice. He WAS one of the "120" from Acts 1:15.

Not an issue. The only issue is to whom did the Lord Jesus directly and face to face give the GC? 11 plus Paul.

I should have led off with Barnabas. If you can accept that and get away from this idea that 'apostle' means, exclusively in all contexts, one of the 12, then you may be able to take this passage at face value. But, I admit, of the passages I shared, this one is the least explicit. The most straightforward reading, if one doesn't have this kind of prejudice about what 'apostles' can mean, is that he is referring to himself and Apollos.

Hold on a second. Think about what you are saying. Have you read Acts? If any of those survivng of the twelve apostles were with Paul were in Thessalonika, that would be a glaring omission from Acts 17. It does not fit the narrative in Acts very well.

When do you think the eleven went to Thessalonika?

Why don't you sit down and read a couple of chapters of I Thessalonians for your devotional reading today. Notice the use of the word 'we.'

And again, if you will notice in the first verse of the epistle, that I quoted above, the epistle was written by three men, Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

See those three names in verse one? And they write the epistle referring to themselves as 'we' throughout. Why would 'we' not refer to all of them in chapter 2 verse 6 about 'the apostles of Christ.'

Paul's other traveling companion, Barnabas, and Paul are called 'apostles' in Acts also. In Barnabas' case, we can see where he was sent. The Bible does not say whether he had some pre-Acts 13 calling like Paul did. But we do know that the Spirit spoke in Acts 13 and he was sent out.

The word translated 'apostle' means 'sent one.' In Matthew 9, Jesus says to pray the Lord of the harvest to send forth laborers into His harvest. He prays all night, designates 12 apostles, then he sends them out with instructions to heal, cast out devils, and preach. In another gospel, they are first called 'apostles' after they get back from this journey on which they were sent. Compare this to Acts 13 where the Spirit speaks and sends out Paul and Barnabas to do a work. They preach, plant churches, and appoint elders.

Timothy also had a gift in him, given through prophecy, with the laying on of hands of the elders. The passage does not say what the gift was, whether this was apostleship similar to the Paul and Barnabas calling in Acts 13, or something else.

Consider this passage also:


7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

Btw, some would translate the Old Testament to say he received gifts from men. But lǝ in Hebrew could be translated from, for, or to. The passage is apparently saying He receive gifts for men. So the implication in Paul's dynamic translation is he gave gifts to men.

What kind of gifts did he give AFTER he ascended? Let us look at verse 11 for at least some of them. Here, we see 'apostles' is the first on the list. If you will notice in the gospels, the twelve were appointed __before__ the ascension. But after the ascension, others were sent as apostles. Paul is one of those. Barnabas is another.

Acts 14:4 refers to both Paul and Barnabas as apostles, also.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of casting lots, either. But apparently Joshua felt it was an appropriate method for determining who sinned regarding the devoted items in Jericho. After they stoned Achan, Israel did not lose a bunch of battles because Joshua cast lots. And Proverbs says the lot falls in the lab but it's every decision is from the LORD. So the apostles had reason not to think it was forbidden.

You just read and acknowledged Acts calls Barnabas an apostle. I also did not mention Romans 16 about Andronichus and Junia, who are of note among the apostles (since there is some ambiguity in the wording there) or the fact that in Acts, Paul wrote that he saw none of the apostles besides James the Lord's brother.

Acts first calls Paul and Barnabas 'apostles' after they are sent forth by the Spirit. Paul had a back story of meeting Christ and being sent to the Gentiles. Barnabas does not in Acts.

The Bible never specifically defines 'apostles'. The word means 'sent ones.' it seems to me that you have latched on a couple of features of Paul and the 12's calling-- appointed personally through Christ, learned doctrine directly from Christ, etc.' and created a definition of apostle out of these features. But your definition does not take into account all the New Testament information. It excludes Barnabas (etc.) There is no backstory in the Bible about Barnabas going around with the twelve before the ascension and hearing Jesus then and/or having an encounter with Jesus and learning doctrine from him. The Bible does not teach that these are key elements of being an apostle.

The key element of being an apostle is being sent. The twelve were sent out to preach in Matthew 10 and parallel gospel accounts. It is in Matthew 10 that they are designated 'sent ones' or 'apostles' when they are sent out to preach. Paul and Barnabas are 'sent out' in Acts 13. After this, they care called 'sent ones'-- or 'apostles'-- in Acts 13.

Peter mentioned other criteria for being a member of the twelve in Acts 1. That is a subset of the larger category of 'apostles'. Paul's words exclude him from that group in I Corinthians 15, though, as a man who had labored greatly through the grace given to him,, he did not consider himself to be behind even the chiefest apostles

No he did not. When Jesus sent out the twelve, he said not to go but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Paul's call in Acts is not the exact same as the sending passage in Matthew 28.
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If you acknowledge Barnabas, then, that is more than twelve, unless you want to start removing some of the others from the original 12.

Then, would you have to remove someone else from the original 12 over this?

Galatians 1:19
But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

There are only twelve apostles in the twelve apostles, but there were apostles who were not part of the twelve.

We do not know who taught Barnabas. You are making up a definition of what it means to be an apostle. Paul was an apostle. He learned his doctrine in the desert from Christ. The twelve were apostles, and they learned their doctrine directly from Christ. But the Bible does not say that learning doctrine directly from Christ made one an apostle. We have to consider Barnabas and the others in that larger category of 'apostles.'

But you acknowledge the verse on Barnabas... and that's 13.... and how do you define 'chose himself'? Does that exclude Barnabas?

How about not insisting on your own definition of what an apostle is and looking at how the term is used in scripture, talking all the scripture into account?

“..the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” And after they had fasted and prayed, they laid their hands on them and sent them off.”

Who picked Barnabas again?

You’re adding doctrine about the Great Commission that is not found in scripture.

Paul, chosen by God to be an apostle by direction of the Holy Spirit, would have also confirmed Silvanus and Timothy as apostles in the same way: by the direction of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit spoke. Barnabas and Saul were sent forth by the Spirit. They were separated to ministry through the laying on of hands by the prophets and teachers.

Next time I’ll just give way to El Presidente. He’s got this.

Prove this from scripture.

I wouldn't be comfortable with that, but I cannot say for sure that it is not 'kosher' either. It seems a bit like divination, but Joshua used a similar method and so did this apostles, and there is a verse in Proverbs.

And Paul not one of the 12 apostle too

correct

FreeGrace2 said:
The other 3 were picked by men.
Can you show where in the verse the Holy Spirit picked these men for apostleship? No, you can't.

Besides, Paul was called (invited) and elected (chosen) to fulfill the Great Commission by the Lord Jesus Himself, not the Holy Spirit. Read Acts 8 and 9. It's all there. As for Barnabas, there are NO verses that show that Jesus appeared to him and gave him the GC.

What am I adding? I am only pointing out that the GC was given personally by the risen Lord and to Paul by the risen Lord. Only those 12.

This is adding your own assumption/opinion to Scripture. And you accuse me of adding. That's hypocrisy.

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. But only 12 of them received the Great Commission directly face to face from the Lord Jesus. I believe that is key.

The other 3 were picked by men.
Paul was an apostle prior to the Spirit's speaking. Barnabas was Paul's helper.

Do you have any biblical evidence that Barnabas evangelized directly?

Acts 9-
26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple.
27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.

If Barnabas was an apostle, it would read "to the other apostles".

There is NO evidence that Barnabas was an apostle. But I'll believe it if there is a verse that says it.

Read Acts 14:14, a verse that shows Barnabas and Saul/Paul were apostles.

Paul mentions Barnabas when he mentioned apostles and his right to live of the Gospel in I Corinthians 9 also.

I have posted in more detail on the topic of Barnabas earlier in the thread.

There is no reason to think Barnabas was an apostle when he first met Paul. Later, the apostles sent him to Antioch and the Spirit sent him and Paul out as we read in Acts 13.

And why would you think he was Paul’s helper? His name was mentioned first when they are mentioned in Acts 13-14...at first.

Rather than tell us what you believe, tell us what the Bible says. Where does the Bible say that receiving the Great Commission face to face directly from the Lord makes one an apostle or is required for one to be an apostle. If scripture calls Barnabas an apostle, why can't you accept that.?
Acts 13
5 And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.
(NKJV)
They preached the word of God in the synagogues.

Acts 14
12 And Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker.
(NKJV)

If Paul was the chief speaker, that implies that Barnabas spoke too. They may have thought Barnabas was the senior one of the pair.' Notice above that John was their helper, the one popularly known as 'Mark'. Acts does focus on Paul's sermons. Luke apparently joined Paul some time later, and much of the book focuses on Paul's ministry and preaching. That doesn't mean Barnabas did not preach and minister.

Paul throws Barnabas name into the discourse when he wrote about how he, like other apostles, had a right to live of the Gospel:

I Corinthians 9

9 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

I already showed you what the Bible says.

Matt 28-
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16-
14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Acts 1-
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

Luke 6:13 - When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles:

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

These verses show that Jesus gave the Great Commission to the 11. No one else.
Acts 9:15 shows that Paul was Jesus' "chosen instrument" to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

Like the 11, Paul met the resurrected Christ face to face. So, the GC was given to the 11 and to Paul. I count 12 in all.

But this isn't a doctrine. It doesn't matter what one's opinion is. Those who vote for Matthias, fine. We'll all know in eternity.

I just showed you the verses about the 11 being designated as "apostle" by the Lord. And Paul was as well.

Where did you get the idea that I don't accept that? What I've shown is that the 11 plus Paul were the ONLY ONES who received the GC face to face from the risen Lord.

If you want to think that Matthias has his name on one of the foundations, good for you.

But Paul outshined ALL the other apostles in his ministry.

Gal 2
11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles.
12 But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he (Peter) was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

This verse shows who was the evangelist. Barnabas accompanied Paul as a helper, just as Timothy was.

I have no doubt that Barnabas was an apostle. But he didn't receive the GC from the Lord.