Paul's Instructions to Timothy in how to be a Minister of God's Word

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
AandW

AandW

Banned
#1
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
#1
Timothy Chapter 4:
Prescribe and teach these things. Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."


But from all of these excellent words of advice and wisdom Paul shares to Timothy, this portion struck me the most as being really specific:
[Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.]

Paul is telling Timothy to use his [Spiritual Gift].
Paul explains how Timothy has this Gift, [it was BESTOWED on him through PROPHETIC UTTERANCE and the laying on of hands by the Church Leaders].

Is Paul teaching Timothy how to continue Speaking in Tongues [Prophetic Utterance] + Laying on of hands by the Church Leaders?
Which current Churches Speak in Tongues, Lay hands on people they Pray for, receive Gifts bestowed upon them through PROPHETIC UTTERANCES?


Paul is definitely claiming Gifts come from Prophetic Utterances
One thing is for certain, Paul believes Ministers/Preachers should be full of the Holy Spirit and have a GIFT that's bestowed upon them through Prophetic Utterance and Laying on of Hands.
Whose Pastor, of the Church you attend, that does not meet any of Paul's purposes/conditions for being a Minister/Preacher?
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#2
Apr 21, 2021
7,599
3,180
113
#2
AandW said:
Is Paul teaching Timothy how to continue Speaking in Tongues [Prophetic Utterance] + Laying on of hands by the Church Leaders?
Click to expand...
Quick question. Could you clarify this? Are you saying speaking in tongues = prophetic utterance; or, that the prophetic utterance was something that helped Timothy continue speaking in tongues?
 
Kidron

Kidron

Banned
#3
Feb 16, 2017
1,037
285
83
#3
AandW said:
Is Paul teaching Timothy how to continue Speaking in Tongues [
Click to expand...
"Prophetic utterance" is not the "gift of Tongues"..

There is the Gift of Prophecy, and that is what the verse says......"Prophetic utterance".

And because Timothy is an Evangelist, its more likely that the "gift" was the same.
 
Aaron56

Aaron56

Well-known member
#4
Jul 12, 2021
2,546
1,445
113
#4
Timothy was an apostle. Apostles do the work of an evangelist (sharing the love of God) when they are sent to areas where there are no believers.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#5
Sep 4, 2013
30,240
6,565
113
#5
AandW said:
Is Paul teaching Timothy how to continue Speaking in Tongues [Prophetic Utterance] + Laying on of hands by the Church Leaders?
Which current Churches Speak in Tongues, Lay hands on people they Pray for, receive Gifts bestowed upon them through PROPHETIC UTTERANCES?
Click to expand...
NO

The laying on of hands and Sanctified believers praying over a person is HOW the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is received.

Tongues as described in Acts during the birth of the Church IS NOTHING MORE THAN OTHER LANGUAGES than what the person knows is speaking......it IS NOT gobbly gook or any such.

As well, the "unknown tongue" spoken of in Scripture CAN NOT BE TAUGHT BECAUSE IT IS UNKNOWN except to the Holy Spirit..............


goodness..........what lengths some will go to
 
AandW

AandW

Banned
#6
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
#6
ResidentAlien said:
Quick question. Could you clarify this? Are you saying speaking in tongues = prophetic utterance; or, that the prophetic utterance was something that helped Timothy continue speaking in tongues?
Click to expand...
Excellent question!

We know what the [UTTERANCE] Gifts are Prophecy, Tongues, and Interpretation of tongues.

I am seeing what idealism's come out from Paul's term [prophetic utterance].

I am intrigued by Paul's specific use of this classification that qualified Timothy's [special Gift] that was bestowed upon him through prophetic utterances.

Is Paul claiming Timothy [did not] have this Gift?
UNTIL, whatever Prophetic Utterance means, the Gift Timothy did not have suddenly he now has

So if prophetic utterance happens in a Godly manner, which we have no idea what Prophetic Utterance actually is, a current day Christian could receive a New Gift of the Holy Spirit they never had before?

Prophetic Utterance seems important enough to want to know more about.
 
AandW

AandW

Banned
#7
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
#7
Kidron said:
"Prophetic utterance" is not the "gift of Tongues"..

There is the Gift of Prophecy, and that is what the verse says......"Prophetic utterance".

And because Timothy is an Evangelist, its more likely that the "gift" was the same.
Click to expand...
We know what the [UTTERANCE] Gifts are Prophecy, Tongues, and Interpretation of tongues.

I am seeing what idealism's come out from Paul's term [prophetic utterance].

I am intrigued by Paul's specific use of this classification that qualified Timothy's [special Gift] that was bestowed upon him through prophetic utterances.

Is Paul claiming Timothy [did not] have this Gift?
UNTIL, whatever Prophetic Utterance means, the Gift Timothy did not have suddenly he now has

So if prophetic utterance happens in a Godly manner, which we have no idea what Prophetic Utterance actually is, a current day Christian could receive a New Gift of the Holy Spirit they never had before?

Prophetic Utterance seems important enough to want to know more about.
 
AandW

AandW

Banned
#8
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
#8
Aaron56 said:
Timothy was an apostle. Apostles do the work of an evangelist (sharing the love of God) when they are sent to areas where there are no believers.
Click to expand...
Amen!
 
AandW

AandW

Banned
#9
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
#9
p_rehbein said:
NO

The laying on of hands and Sanctified believers praying over a person is HOW the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is received.

Tongues as described in Acts during the birth of the Church IS NOTHING MORE THAN OTHER LANGUAGES than what the person knows is speaking......it IS NOT gobbly gook or any such.

As well, the "unknown tongue" spoken of in Scripture CAN NOT BE TAUGHT BECAUSE IT IS UNKNOWN except to the Holy Spirit..............


goodness..........what lengths some will go to
Click to expand...

We know what the [UTTERANCE] Gifts are Prophecy, Tongues, and Interpretation of tongues.

I am seeing what idealism's come out from Paul's term [prophetic utterance].

I am intrigued by Paul's specific use of this classification that qualified Timothy's [special Gift] that was bestowed upon him through prophetic utterances.

Is Paul claiming Timothy [did not] have this Gift?
UNTIL, whatever Prophetic Utterance means, the Gift Timothy did not have suddenly he now has

So if prophetic utterance happens in a Godly manner, which we have no idea what Prophetic Utterance actually is, a current day Christian could receive a New Gift of the Holy Spirit they never had before?

Prophetic Utterance seems important enough to want to know more about.
 
Kidron

Kidron

Banned
#10
Feb 16, 2017
1,037
285
83
#10
AandW said:
We know what the [UTTERANCE] Gifts are Prophecy, Tongues, and Interpretation of tongues.
.
Click to expand...
"utterance", = Preaching, teaching, ..... = "To Evangelize".......= Timothy the "evangelist".

Also, dont confuse your "prayer language" with "the Gift of Tongues", as they are not the same.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#11
Apr 21, 2021
7,599
3,180
113
#11
First, there's nothing in this passage about tongues, either explicitly or implicitly. All we know is Timothy received a gift when the elders laid hands on him and spoke a word of prophecy over him. In all likelihood it was the gift of evangelism. For example 2 Timothy 4:5 says:

As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.​
​
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#12
Jun 30, 2015
24,752
13,413
113
#12
AandW said:
Is Paul teaching Timothy how to continue Speaking in Tongues [Prophetic Utterance] + Laying on of hands by the Church Leaders?
Click to expand...
Nothing in the passage suggests that the gift which Timothy received was that of speaking in tongues. Nothing in Scripture conflates "prophetic utterance" with speaking in tongues. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 14 specifically distinguishes them.

AandW said:
Paul is definitely claiming Gifts come from Prophetic Utterances
Click to expand...
No, he isn't. The verse says "gift... bestowed THROUGH prophetic utterance", not "gift... bestowed from prophetic utterance". He is speaking about one specific gift in one specific case given to one specific person; there is no hint of the event being normative.


AandW said:
One thing is for certain, Paul believes Ministers/Preachers should be full of the Holy Spirit and have a GIFT that's bestowed upon them through Prophetic Utterance and Laying on of Hands.
Click to expand...
The passage does not say that. It is a personal message to Timothy regarding Paul's desire for Timothy. While we can reasonably conclude that God wants His 'ministers' to be filled with the Holy Spirit, there is nothing normative about a gift bestowed through prophetic utterance.

It's a bad idea to make doctrine from narrative passages.

AandW said:
Whose Pastor, of the Church you attend, that does not meet any of Paul's purposes/conditions for being a Minister/Preacher?
Click to expand...
To what conditions are you referring, specifically?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#13
Jun 30, 2015
24,752
13,413
113
#13
Kidron said:
"utterance", = Preaching, teaching, ..... = "To Evangelize".......= Timothy the "evangelist".
Click to expand...
The word "prophetic" distinguishes the utterance from "regular" preaching and teaching. Anyone with some knowledge and a functional voicebox can preach and teach, but only those gifted with speaking prophecy can deliver prophetic utterances.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#14
Jul 18, 2017
24,531
12,976
113
#14
AandW said:
Is Paul teaching Timothy how to continue Speaking in Tongues [Prophetic Utterance] + Laying on of hands by the Church Leaders?
Click to expand...
You are misunderstanding the words of Paul. There is nothing in this passage about speaking in tongues. "Prophetic utterances" were divinely revealed words spoken in the apostolic churches while the spiritual gift of prophecy was still in effect. That is no longer the case, since Scripture is complete. So a quotation from the Bible would be equivalent to those prophetic utterances. As to the laying on of hands by the presbytery, it would mean that the elders of the church prayed over Timothy. That would still be valid provided the elders were genuine elders being led by the Spirit.
 
Kidron

Kidron

Banned
#15
Feb 16, 2017
1,037
285
83
#15
Dino246 said:
The word "prophetic" distinguishes the utterance from "regular" preaching and teaching. Anyone with some knowledge and a functional voicebox can preach and teach, but only those gifted with speaking prophecy can deliver prophetic utterances.
Click to expand...
Well, lets consider something...
The fact that Timothy is "called" to be an "Evangelist', is distinguishing him as having an anointing that is "the call of God" on Him.
That is not for everyone.
That is like the Call to be an Apostle/MIssionary that Paul had, or to be a Teacher, or a Bishop/Pastor.
So, this CALL, is the "gift' that has set Timothy apart.
Its very possible that the "Prophecy", was "you are called to be an EVANGELIST"....
That is very likely the "utterance" and the "prophecy".

If your Bishop/Pastor, has truly been called into the ministry, then that is a heavenly anointing that is on them, and in them, that is a gift.
Timothy had this.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#16
Jun 30, 2015
24,752
13,413
113
#16
Kidron said:
Well, lets consider something...
The fact that Timothy is "called" to be an "Evangelist', is distinguishing him as having an anointing that is "the call of God" on Him.
That is not for everyone.
That is like the Call to be an Apostle/MIssionary that Paul had, or to be a Teacher, or a Bishop/Pastor.
So, this CALL, is the "gift' that has set Timothy apart.
Its very possible that the "Prophecy", was "you are called to be an EVANGELIST"....
That is very likely the "utterance" and the "prophecy".

If your Bishop/Pastor, has truly been called into the ministry, then that is a heavenly anointing that is on them, and in them, that is a gift.
Timothy had this.
Click to expand...
Basically, I agree. Some people are clearly gifted as preachers, but not everyone who preaches is so gifted. The same goes for teachers.

You can be called into ministry and not be gifted as a preacher or teacher. Those are only two of many giftings described in the NT.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#17
#17
excuse me A & W, but is your op a copy/paste from some other site?
 
Kidron

Kidron

Banned
#18
Feb 16, 2017
1,037
285
83
#18
Dino246 said:
Basically, I agree. Some people are clearly gifted as preachers, but not everyone who preaches is so gifted. The same goes for teachers.You can be called into ministry and not be gifted as a preacher or teacher. Those are only two of many giftings described in the NT.
Click to expand...


If a person has a "call", ....then that is the anointing that comes from God, that is the divine power that causes that office to be effective through the called one..

Its a divine energy, its a heavenly presence.

Its the fact that 10 ministers can read the same paragraph to the same room full of people, and God working through that "called one", causes the 100 to sense something in their spirit about the words........ Yet, its not the words, its God's anointing through that person.

Its the """anointing that breaks the yoke"""< not the speaker.

Paul, who wrote most of the NT , defined himself as being not too impressive to look at,.... but the power of God that is His anointing was amazing in person.
He once told a Male Witch that this Sorcerer would go "blind" for a season, and the Witch suddenly needed someone to help him out of the street.
That is God's power working in a special way through an Apostle. 2nd Corinthians 12:12.

Its always God that is doing the miracles, the calling, the gifting.........yet, its through someone and the "call" God works to a higher degree, is the power of God.
That's the anointing.
These are the "called".
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#19
Jun 30, 2015
24,752
13,413
113
#19
Nehemiah6 said:
You are misunderstanding the words of Paul. There is nothing in this passage about speaking in tongues. "Prophetic utterances" were divinely revealed words spoken in the apostolic churches while the spiritual gift of prophecy was still in effect. That is no longer the case, since Scripture is complete. So a quotation from the Bible would be equivalent to those prophetic utterances.
Click to expand...
You have erroneously conflated "prophecy" with "Scripture".

If your position were correct, there would be several more passages (if not entire books). Tell me:

Where is the Scripture uttered by Agabus BEFORE he prophesied about the famine, as he was already a prophet when he spoke that (Acts 11:27)?

Where is the Scripture uttered by Agabus' companions (ibid)?

Where is the Scripture uttered by Philip's four daughters (Acts 21:9)?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#20
Jun 30, 2015
24,752
13,413
113
#20
Kidron said:
If a person has a "call", ....then that is the anointing that comes from God, that is the divine power that causes that office to be effective through the called one..

Its a divine energy, its a heavenly presence.

Its the fact that 10 ministers can read the same paragraph to the same room full of people, and God working through that "called one", causes the 100 to sense something in their spirit about the words........ Yet, its not the words, its God's anointing through that person.

Its the """anointing that breaks the yoke"""< not the speaker.

Paul, who wrote most of the NT , defined himself as being not too impressive to look at,.... but the power of God that is His anointing was amazing in person.
He once told a Male Witch that this Sorcerer would go "blind" for a season, and the Witch suddenly needed someone to help him out of the street.
That is God's power working in a special way through an Apostle. 2nd Corinthians 12:12.

Its always God that is doing the miracles, the calling, the gifting.........yet, its through someone and the "call" God works to a higher degree, is the power of God.
That's the anointing.
These are the "called".
Click to expand...
Again, basically, I agree. However, that doesn't do anything to refute by statement that one cannot truly prophesy except by the Holy Spirit, while on can truly preach or teach without the Holy Spirit, for the message is the truth, and the word of God has power. So, let's not get any further off topic.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.