predestination vs freewill

[Luk 17:9-10 KJV]
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Amen.

It is us who obey the commands of the Lord and are saved. The Lord does not obey for us.

The link between predestination and free choice is a mystery that has not been fully revealed to us in the Scripture. God doesn't have to reveal every single thing to us concerning how He goes about saving some and allowing others to progress down on the road to hell.

What do we know from Scripture?
* All mankind deserve hell because of the blight of sin caused by Adam's disobedience, and God would be totally just to allow everyone to end up in hell. In fact, there is no just reason why He should save anyone, because all are in rebellion against God and there is none righteous, no not one.

* But God is merciful in His nature, so He put a plan of salvation together involving the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ on the cross to take upon Himself the guilt and punishment of sin for those who chose to embrace Him as Saviour.

* Through His foreknowledge He knows who is going to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ, so He chose those ones to be His elect, and left the others as reprobates to continue on the road to hell.

* When the right time came for each elect person, He plucked them off the road to hell, enlightened them with the truth of the Gospel, and gave them saving faith to embrace Christ as Saviour.

* At the same time, to give every person the opportunity to believe the Gospel and choose for Christ, He caused the Gospel to be preached to all the world.

* Therefore, in the judgement, no one will be able to say that he was not given the opportunity to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ. Therefore, they had remained on the road to hell through their own choice to reject the Gospel offered to them.

This is what we know through the Scripture. What the Scripture does not tell us is how all this was linked and how it worked - how election came before any decision for Christ, and if God foreknew who was going to reject the Gospel why He didn't take extra measures to ensure their salvation. But He has revealed enough in the Scripture for us to hear the Gospel, decide whether to believe it or not, and make the choice whether or not to embrace Christ. We are not told whether it was God who chose us, or if we were the ones who chose Christ. These are the unrevealed mysteries.

Because God is sovereign and does what He wants without having to justify His actions to anyone, He can reveal what He wants to reveal, and hide what He wants to hide; and He has the right to extend mercy to those He choses, and to withhold mercy to others. The Scripture is fairly clear about those who through over-curiosity want to question God's actions - "Does the clay ask the Potter, why are you doing it this way?"

It may not have been revealed to you, but I see it clearly.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



All 12 Disciples were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come.


11 remained faithful to the end.



We must choose to endure to the end, if we expect to inherit eternal life to which we are predestined.










JPT

Predestination means predetermined. Judas was not predetermined in anything. He is of satan,He never followed Christ

I think you misunderstood my post. It was regarding my disagreement with the doctrine of rewards by one's works

Only those those who obey Him receive salvation on that Day.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

You either did not read my post all the way through or are resistant to the point I was making.

Yes, faith is necessary for Salvation but as was pointed out in the original post, this faith is the gift of Regeneration by the Spirit. It is the changing of our Darkened Nature that is at Enmity with God and His Christ. Scripture clearly teaches, God is the one who does this, He gives the Elect a new heart and takes away that heart of stone. He opens the eyes and ears to hear the Gospel message. Just as Lydia was prepared for the message so is every believer. This new spiritual nature which was "dead in trespasses and sin" is made alive in the new birth. One cannot believe while "dead", no more than one can act to save himself when "dead". One must have life in order to carry out the requirements of Scripture. This is the mysterious work of the Holy Spirit upon the passive recipient. (John 3:1-10).

Therefore, at the appointed time, God moves first upon the elect individual. Then and only then, can this person, who is now born again, move towards Christ as Savior in a legitimate "conversion" experience. Anything short of this - is "human faith" or "common faith" being exercised by a spiritually dead person.

As far as your statement: "Who is going to keep God's will from being carried out? Those who turn away from faith. God's not going to force anyone into heaven."

If you believe that a human being can subvert God's will from being carried out, as you stated above, then either you deny Scripture or you know not the God of Scripture. If God has breathed spiritual life into a believer, their "faith" cannot fail !!!!!!

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 10:28-30 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
John 18:9 that the word might be fulfilled which he spoke, Of those whom thou hast given me I lost not one.

As far as God not forcing someone into Heaven is concerned, I don't know about you but I will take Salvation no matter how it comes. Bind me in chains and throw me in there. But more to the point - All of God's Elect have already been saved. Yes, saved even before the foundation of the world was laid down. If this was not true... then what do these Verses mean?

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Php 4:3 Yea, I beseech thee also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow-workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

The names in "The Book of Life of the Lamb" is equal to the ones that the Father gave to the Son, (John 6:44). These are equal to the ones chosen in Christ, (Eph. 1:3-5) and equal to the number of the "sheep" that our Redeemer died for. (John 10:11, 15). Not a one shall be lost !!!

What a beautiful thing it is, to come to know that true believers love Christ because He first loved us.

Rolly, please read post # 328, I believe it covers what you are asking of me.

Do you mean that faith is necessary in order to become saved, or is it the result (byproduct)of having been saved?

This statement of yours:

*Through His foreknowledge He knows who is going to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ, so He chose those ones to be His elect, and left the others as reprobates to continue on the road to hell."

This is often taught in the church's and in many commentaries about God's "foreknowledge" but it is incorrect. Yes God knows all things because of His eternal existence and nature. However the Greek word used here does not carry the meaning of looking down through the river of time. We need to closely examine it and it's meaning throughout Scripture. If one has the wrong understanding of "foreknowledge", then they miss the whole purpose and meaning behind Election. Let's start with the verse:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

The Greek word used here for "foreknew" is προεγνω, it is a 3rd. person person singular, aorist active indicative of προγινώσκω. It is a compound word which means "beforehand" and "to know". Therefore it carries the definition of: 1) to know intimately beforehand, 2) To have knowledge of beforehand. Being an "Aorist tense", it magnifies this knowledge in the past. The Greek word magnifies God's "intimate" knowledge of the person and does not imply a looking down through time. God had an "intimate' relationship with the Elect before the foundation of the world.

In the Septuagint, this same Greek word is used in the Old Testament for the following:

Gen_4:1 And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man with the help of Jehovah.
1Sa_1:19 And they rose up in the morning early, and worshipped before Jehovah, and returned, and came to their house to Ramah: and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and Jehovah remembered her;

There are many more but I think you get the idea. "Foreknew" of Rom. 8:29, is a very intimate knowledge, a loving knowledge of the Elect. This should remind us of this passage.

1Jn_4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Additionally, if we keep reading into chapter 9 of Romans, we see that the Apostle Paul further clarified the understanding of God's Election. He knew there would be resistance to what he was writing, so he said:

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

And because many at that time felt that God's promises had felled Israel and thus were questioning the promises of God. Paul said:

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nothing. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:

He now clearly shows that Election has nothing to do with what a person does or does not do. This destroys the idea of God the Father choosing by looking down the river of time. He chose for reasons that seemed good to Him.

Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

This contrast of "Love" and "Hate" or if you will, "Intimate knowledge" or "Lack of knowledge", (Mat. 7:22), clearly, has nothing to do with what one has done or hasn't done nor what one will do or won't do. Rom. 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad,....

Finally, Paul reminds us that God is Sovereign and does as He pleases with His Creation.

Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he is saying to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that wills it, nor of him that is running, but of God that hath mercy.

The attempt to water down God's Sovereignty in Election is destroyed in the above verses. Why God Elected whom He Elected is an eternal mystery. But we know that He first loved us and had an intimate relationship with the Elect before the foundation of the world.

Salvation is, in itself, is a multi-faceted plan... as you well know. Salvation of the Elect is assured from all Eternity and is in the hands of the Eternal God. The Father purposed it, The Son carried it out and The Holy Spirit applies it.

To say there could be NO Salvation without FAITH is a truism. However to say, that one who is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, will not be given this FAITH and exercise it, would be a lie. The points of Salvation are these:

From mans perspective:

1) Hearing or reading the revealed Word of God.
2) Believing or exercising faith - they are one and the same really.
3) Repentance
4) Laying hold of Christ as the only Savior
5) Finding or being led to a local assembly.
6) Following after Christ in Baptism, as the first obedient act out of a good conscience.
7) Continuing in the fellowship of the Saints, centered around sound Doctrine. For in sound Doctrine is the Truth of God which points to our Lord and Savior. It prepares the "Bride" for meeting her "Bridegroom".

Points number 5 and 7 are getting more and more difficult in these later days. One may find themselves in a famine for the True Word of God where they live. I once heard of a young lady, over in England, that tried for two years to find a place to call home. She did finally find a small assembly where she could accept their teachings.

From God's perspective:

1) A decision to create and make known His Glory.
2) Having a plan to redeem some, from a fallen condition, knowing that creation will be cursed because of sin, even before He created it or anyone.
3) Choosing His own Son to be it's Redeemer before anything is created.
4) Having an intimate knowledge of the ones He will chose in Christ before He creates anything.
5) Giving them to His Son, in the Covenant of Redemption, (Lamb's Book of Life), as a love gift to Redeem. This too before the foundation of the world.
6) The Holy Spirit goes to each elected individual, at the appropriate time, to give them a new spiritual birth. This alters their fallen nature and gives to them each spiritual gifts to aid them along the way. It has been the same for the Old Testament Saints as the New. This was based on God the Father's sure knowledge of His Son's redemptive work being carried out. What God plans He does.
7) The Holy Spirit, in the role of comforter, ( New Testament age), indwells the believer and guides his/her thoughts, about the Scriptures they know, in the direction of Jesus Christ as the one and only Redeemer.
8) The Savior carries this one all the way to the finish line and nothing can prevent this one from successfully crossing it. This one joins the Worship in Heaven, singing songs, giving praise to the Lamb and will be with the Lord forever, apart from sin in his/her glorified body.

I know this is more than you were asking about but I just wanted to say it.

Seeing that at the judgement every person will be judged according to their choice of whether they received Christ as Saviour or not, and yet those who were not predestined to salvation will be condemned to hell, explain how people are predestined to salvation or hell by God's decree, which implies that they have no choice in the matter. Wouldn't you think that if people had no choice in the matter, they couldn't be judged because whether they got to heaven or hell was God's choice and not theirs?
So, if you have it all worked out, explain how God chooses who is the elect and who is reprobate, and yet people are judged according to their own choice? Isn't there a contradiction there? How do you explain that?

Thank you for your reply, awelight. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into edifying me - it was very gracious of you- and I am enjoying our discussion. I definitely understand the complexity of this issue and realize that it has the potential to draw the entire Bible into it.

It seems to me that #6 & 7, of your "From God's Perspective" group must happen first, and by them does the "From Man's Perspective" group occur. I don't think it possible for us to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and receive His fruit unless and until we have become born again (in fact, I think being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is becoming born again). One of the fruit of the Spirit is faith, so for us to have it we need to have Him -- it would be impossible to have true faith without Him, and impossible to have Him without first being born again. So any faith that is not of Him, is not a true faith.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

As I asked in my previous post, please explain the contradiction between God choosing who is saved and who is to perish by His own decree, and yet every person is to be judged on their own choice of believing or rejecting the Gospel. How can a person be judged and condemned at the judgement if they had no choice in whether to be saved or not? Wouldn't a reprobate person have a defence at the judgement and say that he can't be condemned because God had already made the choice for him?

It is true that God has chosen His elect before the foundation of the world. Tell me, what criteria has He based his choice on, seeing that it is not based on anything we have or can do in the way of good works, and that God is no respecter of persons. And if there is none righteous, no not one, as Romans says, then on what basis does God decide who is to be saved and who is to go to hell?

Also, there is a theological term for those who believe that God doesn't know the future. It is called "Open Theism" Is that the basis of your theology here?

No sir.


Christians will be judged according to our deeds.



God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10

• that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
  
  

JPT

So you subscribe to faith and works? How do you think the thief on the cross will be judged?

The thief repented by accepting that he was guilty and Jesus was innocent

Actually, I think it is easier to understand predestination than free will. We thought we have free will but our daily life choices are made through our wisdom, knowledge, exposure, and experience. Yet, all these are given by God.

Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are from the LORD, so how can anyone understand his own way?
Jeremiah 10:23: I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps.
Acts 17:26 ... and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.
Roman 9:16 So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Some knowledge came to us without us actively seeking it; Some knowledge cannot be found no matter how hard we try.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 ...The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; neither is the bread to the wise, nor the wealth to the intelligent, nor the favor to the skillful. For time and chance happen to all.

Then, God told the Old Testament kings, if they obey, they will have peace, else He will send war against them. Do the nations that God sent to fight the Israeli kingdom have free will?

I didn’t mention works.

The theif on the cross was saved the same way as anyone; he obeyed the Gospel.


Believe and therefore obey the Gospel command repent.


Repent means to turn to God in submission to Him as Lord.


The way we obey this command to repent is to confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord.


We believe in our heart God raised Him from the dead, and confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Let’s carefully examine what the thief said:



Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:42-42

• Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

He confessed Jesus as Lord, and believed He would be raised from the dead and therefore come into His kingdom.







JPT