predestination vs freewill

The "world" cannot be future because John 3:16 said: ".. that God so LOVED the world and as I have shown this "love" was past tense and therefore, this world must also be past tense. So what world was this referring too?

Pulling in all of the Scriptures on this subject, I believe it is in reference to the world that God had originally planned to be "upright". As such, the world that was in the mind of God before He created and was marred by sin after creation. This takes us to before the fall of Adam. After all, did not God purpose to send His Son before the foundation of the world? Is not part of Christ's work, the redemption of all creation? (Rom. 8:19-22). Does not creation groan for the redemption of God's people because then it will be redeemed and lifted from the curse?

The word - "world" - has many meanings in Scripture, it can mean: the Earth, all of humanity, a particular group of people and a working system. When Scripture admonishes believers not to be a part of this world, it is referring to the system of this world, it's beliefs, likes and dislikes, (john 17:16; Rom.12:2) God loved, past tense, the world as he intended it, not what the fall made it. In the future, He will make it again, that which was intended through a re-creation of the universe and the removal of sin and the curse.

I know you addressed this Rogerg but I have to respond.

How you are interpreting Mat. 7, (the gates) is very strange to me. It is as if you are trying to fit a personal experience into the Scripture teaching. Like you are trying to make room for those religionist who are bound up in Doctrinal error. Just because one goes to a church or says they are Christians, does not make it so. If we inspected the "fruit" on their "religious" tree, I doubt we will find "good" fruit. I do believe, that a new convert, can get hung up in bad Doctrine but the indwelling Spirit will lead him out in short order. Likewise, there are religious Elect individuals, who believe at that time, they are saved but are not. Later they are quickened and realize they had not the Truth before. All of God's regenerated believer's, today, have the indwelling Spirit, and that same Spirit is not going to teach one person one thing and another something different.

As to this statement:
I also believe that the scriptures teach that there will be a greater number who go to heaven than there is that go to hell.

You ignored my previous response to this. Please show in Scripture, any verse that would imply that more are going to Heaven than Hell. I gave you many that would say otherwise.

I only disagree with regeneration before hearing the Gospel. If you can show me where scripture teaches that, I would accept it.

I disagree.
Because Jesus was God, as he said many times. That means there was the one and only God with us as Emmanuel and who was God, The Word, made flesh.

You do know that Emmanuel, Jesus, Yeshua, figures prominently in the Old Testament?
Isaiah 7
The Sign of Immanuel
(Matthew 1:18–25)

10Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, saying, 11“Ask for a sign from the LORD your God, whether from the depths of Sheol or the heights of heaven.”

12But Ahaz replied, “I will not ask; I will not test the LORD.”

13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well? 14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15 By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey. 16For before the boy knows enough to reject evil and choose good, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
Matthew 1:23"Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel" which is, being translated, "God with us."

I know someone who thinks the spirit that was allowed to enter the mortal child Jesus was sent by God into the newborn. Because that spirit was God's slave. After Jesus ascension back to the father that image of Jesus took up with God at his right hand. The slave spirit returned into the realm of God's Heaven.

Find that one in the scripture.
They couldn't either but that's what they live and believe.
Why is it so hard to grasp God predestined, predetermined, all things according to his will and plan?
According to some 27% of the Bible is prophecy.
God's informing his chosen of things to come.

What is prophecy save for God's predestinating all things?

I thought my post was clear. while this disagreement would not cause me to fall out of fellowship with you, it is important.

There is no verse that will state that regeneration proceeds the Gospel message, this has to be discerned from other passages. Like the one given in John 3:3-9. The Lord in speaking to Nicodemus, did not include any aspect of the Gospel message in His conversation about the new birth. He did not say you must hear the Gospel message and be born again. Any reference to believing, does not come until John 3:11. Here, witness is referred to and the believing of it. Therefore, the word order of our Lord's conversation, is to be born anew and then to accept the witness.

Also, does not the Lord have to replace a heart of stone with a heart of flesh before one can have a disposition of heart that will allow that person to hear the message? This new heart, proceeds the person having hearing ears and seeing eyes. In other words, the ability to do that which this verse says wasn't done:

Rom 10:16 But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah says, Lord, who hath believed our message?

They did not hear the call of the message because they were not regenerated. Those that were, heard the call and believed and what was believed came from the message.

Lydia's heart was prepared beforehand for the message of Paul:

Acts_16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord had opened (Aorist.Active.Indicative), that she attended unto the things which were spoken by Paul.

So clearly in this verse, the Lord had opened Lydia's heart, in the past and this is given as an explanation by the writer, as to why she heard Paul's message and gave heed to it. There were other women present but Scripture only says that Lydia gave heed to the message. The next verse says that Lydia was Baptized and her household. We don't know exactly when are how the household heard. Why did Lydia hear and the other women did not? Because her heart was opened by the Lord, the new birth. It is the Lord, who sends the Spirit, at the appropriate time. However, I think the appropriate time, as taught in these Scriptures, is just before that elect person is to hear the effectual call of the Gospel message and begin their conversion. Without this new birth, they would only hear the "general call" of the Gospel, like everyone else, that has not experienced the new birth.

The New Birth, is what distinguishes the Gospel message from being understood as a "general call" or as an "effectual call". Or put another way, whether one has nothing happen but the tickling of the ears or is "drawn" by the Gospel message to Christ. The first is the results of the general call (upon an unregenerate person), and the second, is the results of the effectual call (upon the regenerated person). Only the regenerate, are "effectually" moved by the revelation of Scriptures. All else are false religionist.

The only other possibility for the new birth, is the Gospel Regenerist's view. They believe, as previously posted, it is the Gospel message itself, that causes the new birth. So their order of events is this: One first hears the Gospel, then they are regenerated and then they believe what is heard. To believe this, one places the renewing of the heart and having hearing ears on the wrong side of regeneration. So then hearing, is while one still has a darkened nature and is at enmity with God. This will not hold up under scrutiny.
It is this new nature that is represented by the new heart of flesh.

One last possibility, is that you have come up with a brand new Doctrine.

I disagree.
Because Jesus was God, as he said many times. That means there was the one and only God with us as Emmanuel and who was God, The Word, made flesh.

You do know that Emmanuel, Jesus, Yeshua, figures prominently in the Old Testament?
Isaiah 7
The Sign of Immanuel
(Matthew 1:18–25)

10Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, saying, 11“Ask for a sign from the LORD your God, whether from the depths of Sheol or the heights of heaven.”

12But Ahaz replied, “I will not ask; I will not test the LORD.”

13Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well? 14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15 By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey. 16For before the boy knows enough to reject evil and choose good, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
Matthew 1:23"Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel" which is, being translated, "God with us."

I know someone who thinks the spirit that was allowed to enter the mortal child Jesus was sent by God into the newborn. Because that spirit was God's slave. After Jesus ascension back to the father that image of Jesus took up with God at his right hand. The slave spirit returned into the realm of God's Heaven.

Find that one in the scripture.
They couldn't either but that's what they live and believe.
Why is it so hard to grasp God predestined, predetermined, all things according to his will and plan?
According to some 27% of the Bible is prophecy.
God's informing his chosen of things to come.

What is prophecy save for God's predestinating all things?

Awelight, respectfully, I admire your thoughts on the scriptures, and agree with most of them, however, The scriptures tell us that God's elect people are numbered as the stars in heaven and the grains of sand in the seashore, even telling us that they are so many that they can not be numbered. If you are interpreting the straight gate in Matt 7 as the narrow path that leads to "eternal life" in which few there be that find it, how does that harmonize with the fact that there will be more than can be numbered? The life that is found through the straight and narrow is an abundant life that God gives to the remnant of his people who have denied themselves and been revealed the truths of God's righteousness that his Son secured their eternal inheritance without any consideration of their good works. If you interpret Romans 10 as it should be interpreted, you would understand that most of God's elect (those in the wide gate) are still going about trying to establish their own righteousness by the works of the law that was taught in the old testament.

The few, the remnant, the little flock, etc, is not all of God's elect people, but only a small portion of God's elect.

Ezk 10 harmonizes with Matt 7 and the two gates by its explanation of the wheel within a wheel. All of God's elect make up the bride of Christ, his invisible church, but there are only a small group of his elect, the remnant, little flock, the few, (those given the truths of God's righteousness by the revelation of the Holy Spirit within them) that make up the visible church. The outer, bigger, wheel represents the invisible church, those of God's elect that are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their works, which are also those that enter the wide gate.

These truths were withheld from me for 12 years from the fact that I thought I was intelect enough that I could figure the scriptures out where they, seemingly, did not contradict themselves. After 12 years I gave up and denied by entelect, before it was revealed to me. In other words, I had entered the wide gate until I denied myself and found the straight gate. That is why Jesus told his apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (the wide gate).

All of God's elect are saved to eternal heaven, but most of his elect can be lost to the knowledge of God's righteousness. and in need of being saved (delivered) from their ignorance.

(bottom line to me is that if God had this world in view for John 3:16 -17, then it would mean that He was either unable to demonstrate His love to that which He said He loves, or destroy that which He said He would destroy. The only way God's promises can transpire in both cases would be for two worlds to be in view, not one. )

Maybe it's in the past tense because His love for it began prior to when the verses were written - when His plan was formulated to send Jesus as the Savior to save the next world, not that that world was physically existed in the past. Also, and I'm not 100% sure about this, but spiritually speaking, I think the next world did exist within the spiritual sphere after Christ died on the cross, but did not yet in the physical - that occurs at the end of time.

[Mat 27:53 KJV]
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.



Theoretically speaking, had Jesus not been successful in His offering, then the world to come, couldn't exist, and the elect wouldn't have eternal life- in other words, Jesus had to save both. God's plan for eternity future was completely dependent upon Jesus being faithful to the Father.
When anyone tries to put a time frame on when God knew or decided something, my brain goes into a hard lock-up because I can't fathom how to evaluate timing in relation to God's thought processes. However, I don't think the world needed a Savior until Adam and Eve violated God's command not to eat of the tree



Yes, I know it has many meanings, but regardless of what it means, can we say that one will be destroyed and next will be eternal? I do think the Bible is quite clear that the current cosmos will melt with fervent heat, etc. Again, If it God's love was to this world than how could He destroy it, especially if He sent His son to save it?

Anyway if you agree, I'd like to continue our discussion but I need to consider and research your points more fully so my my reply isn't quite so fragmented or that I miss something- hope that's ok. I'll continue writing after dinner
If you'd rather not continue, just let me know - thanks Roger

I agree this question is not something to divide over.

In the Old Testament, many were saved without fully having heard the Gospel or perhaps more properly not having understood the gospel which was preached in types and shadows and was a mystery until these last days. . But to me, born again means born of the Spirit as Jesus said in John 3

Ephesians 1:13 says having heard and believed we were sealed with the Spirit.

I believe there is a monergistic work of God upon a hearer that leads to faith and that saves. I’m just not sure I’d call it regeneration.

but now our disagreement might be a semantic one

I think we agree on much, and do not want to divide over this. If I am wrong, I am confident God will reveal to me my error. He has corrected my thinking many times in the past.

Don't think of any part of knowledge, in the Scriptures, as semantics, every little dot and tittle are important. Having these discussions helps both of us to grow.

You were on the right track as you looked at the OT believers. How did they believe if their was no Gospel? Abraham did not know of the Gospel but he knew the Lord. Noah had no Gospel knowledge but he believed that God was going to flood the Earth and needed to build an Ark. What made these men different than the others of their time? God's Grace and the new Birth. The same birth that the Spirit performs today. The difference was, the Holy Spirit did not dwell in the OT Saints as He does in believers now. In the OT days He would come upon one to strengthen and help one speak for God or make it possible to carry out a particular task.

There were no types and shadows really for these two men. They were before the Tabernacle and giving of Law. If one does not believe that this is how they were saved and they did not experience the new birth, then how did God put a new heart into these men. How did God breath spiritual life back into them.? They were fallen just like the rest.

In Ephesians 1:13, being "sealed" with the Spirit has nothing to do with being born again, except that a born again believer is sealed with the Spirit. The seal being spoken of here, is the Lord's mark upon His possession. Just like any King, all had their signet ring with which they would press their seal into the hot wax. This seal, told everyone viewing it, which King it belonged too. The Elect are sealed with the seal of promise - the Holy Spirit - until the rightful owner comes to claim His possession. That owner, of course, is the King of kings. You have to remember all that came before this verse. Eph. 1:3-10, which outlined all those wonderful purposes of God. Then in Eph. 1:11-14, are the results to these purposes:

1) We were made a heritage.
2) We will be to the praise of His Glory.
3) Our hope is in Christ.

Then these things of verses 13 and 14 are all past tense, but there order is not necessarily consecutive but are concurrent with each other:

- having heard the Truth of our salvation.
- having believed on Him.
- having been sealed by the Spirit.
- we have the earnest of our inheritance.

I believe you misunderstand what "Regeneration" is. It is not believing, we do that. It is not the system of faith, that is in the Scriptures. It is not conversion, that is putting into practice what we believe.

Regeneration in English is defined as - 1) the action or act of regenerating or being regenerated. 2) The act or action of replacing a body part. In Scripture, it means the act of renewing ones spiritual life.

Since everyone, after the fall, is dead in trespasses and sin - we must define "death". Yes, the fall brought death upon us all in the physical sense, we will die but one is not said to "be" dead as Scripture has proclaimed. The fall made us dead in the spiritual sense. We are physically alive but we are spiritually dead. Our spirit is as dead as a bad battery - There is no juice in it, no life at all. That is why Scripture says, the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:14). They are foolishness to him because spiritual things are discerned with ones spirit. Comparing spiritual with spiritual.

So when one speaks of the New Birth or being Born from above as in regeneration, that one means to give spiritual life to a person. The new birth jumps starts his/her dead spirit. Just as regeneration regenerates a dead battery. This is the reason why the new birth must take place first. One will never understand spiritual things if the Holy Spirit does not jump start that persons dead spirit. Regeneration makes that person spiritually alive and able to discern spiritual things. That is why our Lord said in John 3:6, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And again, in: John 3:12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things? One must be Regenerated. This process then, is equated to giving a person a hew heart that is fleshy and sensitive to the things of God, as written in the Old Testament.

That is all the term Regeneration means, nothing more and nothing less.

I never said that regeneration is something we do. I still don’t see anywhere in the scripture where one is born again before they believe on the gospel. Read the following.

Nicodemus was not born again in John 3.

Jesus said the Spirit of truth was dwelling WITH believers in John 14 and WOULD BE ( future tense) in them. The Spirit in dwelling in the sense that He would be in and abide in and baptize believers into Christ would not come before the blood of the New Covenant was shed and until Christ was also GLORIFED.

John 7 said the Holy Spirit had not yet given. (John 7:39).

The Spirit of Truth was dwelling with believers in John 14. There were instances when the Spirit would be upon believers. He would be in them and would dwell in them forever after Jesus was glorified.

Regeneration can only mean importation of new life , a spiritual resurrection as a precursor to our future bodily resurrections, earnest of our inheritance.

Being born of the Spirit, born again happens when the Spirit indwells a believer forever. According to Jesus’ Words, this gift was not given until after He was glorified.

The Spirit was given and rested upon men as the fulfilled a specific office in the Old Covenant. NICODEMUS WAS still under the old covenant, for the blood of the New Covenant had not been shed

As well, the prophets said that one of the marks of the New Covenanant would be that God would write His Law on our hearts and put His Spirit to live in us forever. This is the New Covenant in Jesus blood, that was ratified by His blood and consummated on the day of Pentecost

I Remember the just shall live by faith, old our new testament to have faith is the best way to honor god

Ps. In in addition, we need to remember that under the old covenant the SPIRIT departed from Saul and also when David fell into the grossest sin he prayed “take not your Holy Spirit for me”. But in the New Covenant, the Spirit dwells in us and abides with us forever.

And the New Covenant replaced the Old AFTER the blood of the Covenant was offered, and the Holy Spirit was given to dwell with us forever after Jesus was glorified.

And the prophet Jeremiah said that the New Covenant would involve forgiveness, cleansing, Gods Law written on heart, and God’s Spirit endwelling believers

You are right we are not puppets any more, we used to be when the devil could come at will and push our buttons, he could get us to do his will, we were his slaves, slaves to sin and death

Now THAT'S what the bible teaches. It doesn't say a thing in the NT about human freewill and there are about 3 references to freewill in the OT. They relate to freewill offerings because God does not demand back blessings He has given .... but regarding those offerings it says in another place that God moved the hearts of those He wished to give.

Does it trouble you that God should move our hearts to accomplish His will? does it worry you that He should will IN US to do of His good will? is that what you mean about us being puppets?

Where do you read that God compels anyone to sin, God strictly charged the man concerning knowledge of evil ..."leave it alone, you have no choice, I'm telling you, you'll die if you mess with that tree" That is not freewill to sin, the consequences are much too severe to treat lightly.

But the devil tricked them into believing they had freewill, he said "you will not die." and they believed him rather than God. They found out soon enough that they did not have freewill to sin, they found out soon enough that whereas they had been FREE now they were SLAVES.

See being free is not freedom to sin. Now Adam could choose but YOU and I can't choose, we are born sinners and we will sin and because we sin we die and dead folks do not have freewill. We are already dead while we walk. But thank God He has sent Jesus to set us free, He saved us.

But don't say you were already free brother, what purpose would there be in Jesus dying for us if we had freewill?

I reject Calvin's doctrine, I believe in bible predestination and you are right there is no way to reconcile human freewill with predestination.

All it means is since God chose us before the world began and decided that we should belong to His Son [why that doesn't make your heart sing for joy is beyond my understanding ... but people gripe and moan about it] He chose us and He makes all things work together for our good. What is so awful about that.?

I think the biggest obstacle to understanding is what people mean by free will. It means different things to different people. At the extreme, God is going to save those He has predestined. So why bother preaching the gospel? At the other extreme, we all have to spend every waking moment preaching the gospel or else we'll be sending people to hell.

So why bother preaching the gospel?

The Bible creates Heretics?

No. There are not three. There are one.