Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

wow - thank you for that chart - makes it easy for us - blessing to you

Right, okay...

I addressed that one under my first entry:

...but, note, in each instance (including this ^ Matt19 one), the following point applies:



IOW, I see that phrase (wherever used) pertains to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19); whereas, "the BEMA of Christ" takes place prior to Rev5 and pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Rev5:4's phrase "was found" indicating a "searching judgment" already having taken place by that point, just as it is used of Paul in the latter parts of Acts when he was brought before their [human / earthly] bema]--one being IN HEAVEN; the other, earthly-located

only one of many...

For all of you who insist that Revelation is in strict chronological order - and that the rapture happens at 4:1 --- 1:7 comes before 4:1 ...

Which isn't rapture and is only written to one of 7 churches. That also ignores these things:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

And of course this:

John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends. This is true of examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation where people were there and lived through those events and weren't removed from the Earth to escape them.





The church is mentioned through other terms like here:

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Fellow servants is the church.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints is church.


This has nothing to do with rapture.




This isn't the rapture Paul and Christ spoke of. This is only something that John experienced.

a lot of false blabber that you like to make look good

a womans birth pains can last for days - for the woman in travail this is like 'forever'

Are you an apostle? No, so make sure you stay on course with Scripture and not the vanity of idol worship - human intellect

Wonderful - it is plain as Day when we do not 'add to and take away' from Scripture

Hi A,

Still it is good to discuss what God has written for our instruction etc. (2 Tim. 3: 16)

It was only the `last days` when Jesus arose from the dead and ascended to heaven. Otherwise mankind was doomed to go on and on till he annihilated himself. But we know God was/is merciful and knew and planned and came.... Thus the `last days` are because Jesus defeated Satan, and death, and there are only so many days till He winds it all up. These are the `Last days` before that, from Christ till the New heavens and new earth.

There is also the `end times,` which people muddle up with `last days.` The `end times,` is the end of the times of the Gentiles ruling the world, till the Lord sets up His rulership through Israel over the nations.

Where the scripture talks of being `shortened` it is in the trib, not the 7 years.

`For there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And if those days had not been SHORTENED, no flesh would be saved...` (Matt. 24: 21 & 22)

So where does His Body/His Church/His Elect get 'taken up' (raptured)?

No "pre-tribbers" I know suggest that Revelation is "IN STRICT CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER" (though the SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS pretty much do unfold in chronological sequence, yes).

For one example:

Revelation 1:1 -
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass [/which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS (NOUN)]; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"


Revelation 22:6 -
"And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done [/which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS (NOUN)]."

I'm sure you agree with me (pre-tribber though I be ) that the above two verses are NOT suggesting that, by the end of the whole thing Rev22 is suggesting that it's going to START ALL OVER AGAIN...


Another example:

Revelation 12:13 "...the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren; note: no word "child" in this verse]"... which, in my view, is NOT speaking of Jesus' own birth (like Micah 5:2 is speaking of), but rather, what Micah 5:3 is speaking of (yet future); with the "remnant of his brethren" (not the SAME entity) being spoken of FURTHER there in v.3 corresponding to "the remnant of her seed" in Rev12:17 (speaking of those of Israel--"Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL THE TIME that she which travaileth HATH BROUGHT FORTH..."

...even though Rev12:13 is WRITTEN in the MID-section of the trib events, the "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male" occurred PRIOR to this mid-point. WELL-prior. (Note the "harpazo" word in v.5)


Besides things like this, we pre-tribbers do believe certain chpts/passages in Rev are like interludes, or cycling back to "fill in more detail" (similarly to how Gen1-2 are written).

If you had a teacher (back when *you were taught pre-trib*) tell you Revelation is IN STRICT CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER from Rev1:1 to Rev22-end, then your teacher was flawed... and (as I see over and over again, when I ask ppl to tell me "how were you taught it? explain how you were taught to understand pre-trib, when it was taught to you back then"), they always repeat it back in completely "flawed" ways (that I think, NO WONDER you eventually figured it was crap!)

Kinda like the "strawman" example (of it) you are presenting right now.

May the readers bear in mind that in each section (of the 7 churchES--chpts 2-3), it repeats the phrase: "...what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" (expressed 7 times)

(so, what was said to the one, was meant to be "what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES," and not merely to that one individual church alone; and, in my view, not even merely to "the 7 churches" listed in chpts 2-3, but to all...)

I am being just a little facetious - teasing those who are utterly convinced that '4:1' = 'rapture' point in time.

lol...which means that you would agree with me that the whole church would in fact suffer tribulation based on this:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

So are you now a post-trib?

I know you like to rib us.

But let the readers note (again), Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 together are making the point that the "future" aspects of the book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (NOT unfold over the course of some near-2000 years, AS "the things WHICH ARE" can be said of them--because of THEM it is NOT said THEY are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," by contrast!)

Any viewpoint that disregards what 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 (together) are conveying, is FLAWED.

First of all, are you saying you believe "the tribulation" lasts ONLY "TEN DAYS"?? lol

You guys are just too funny --- making the popcorn now...

EXACTLY, it is completely laughable, the length of twisting/adding/ and taking away from Scripture they MUST do for their idol to stand.

This is why anyone who knows Scripture and obeys Scripture can easily challenge and expose the pre-trib lie.

It is a religious idol, similiar to the catholics with Mary worship, they just can't give it up.

I've stated over and over (in this thread and others like it), that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" has experienced "persecutionS and tribulationS" and "suffering" all throughout its existence on the earth since the first century! (see 2Th1:4, for one example);

See also, Acts 14:22 - "strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and that "through many tribulations it behooves us to enter into the kingdom of God."




...IOW, we are not awaiting the future, specific, LIMITED time-period [7 yrs] IN ORDER to experience it.

WE get it "NOW" (2000-yrs-worth, nearly)!




"yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION" [!]

You defeat your entire pre-trib premise with acknowledgement of the Truth of the suffering and tribulation the Saints have suffered since even before Christ's first coming. And since His resurrection and ascension , the wrath of satan has only intensified.