What do we mean by 'the church'

'The church' needs to get back to the truth.

'The church' needs to stop being greedy.

'The church' is watered down.


What are we talking about when we say 'the church'?

Are you talking about the local church as an institution?

Or are you meaning all believers currently alive?

Thing is.. they are not both 'the church '!

I contend "the church' is always local and all believers living now.. is part of the Kingdom of God and Family of God, but not 'the church'

Matthew 18.. context is of a church that can be spoken to.. got to be local.

When Jesus talks of building His church.. Hes referring to continuing to build His churches He started with His His disciples.

The letters in the NT are to local churches. Either one in particular or a group of churches plural.

So .. where is this church of every believer? I dont find it in scripture.

The entity of every believer assembling as a church does eventually happen. That is in scripture.. but it's in prospect

Where in scripture is a church of every believer for now?

According to the Orthodox Church they are the only original Church and trace their history right back to the Apostles. They only recognise the deliberations of the first seven synods up to and including Nicaea.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.

Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.

There is the church universal. Lord Jesus is building it. (Matthew 16:18). I don't know why you assume that Lord Jesus is speaking about churches plural.

The local church is obvious- based on locality. The church is all those who are born again. For some reason that I do not understand, unbelievers are welcomed in as if they were believers. We are meant to be living stones in a living temple that Lord Jesus is building.

From God's point of view, the work of Christ is complete. From our point of view, there is a great deal to do. God intends for the church to conform to what Christ has already achieved.

The universal church exists because we are all one in Christ Jesus. I traveled a lot in my first few years as a believer. I met Christians in Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, The Philippines and Hawaii. I had a connection with all the believers in those places. It is spiritual, not cultural.

The best understanding of the church that I've read is Watchman Nee's, "The Normal Christian Church". It should be compulsory reading for anyone who aspires to leadership in the church. It's not a lot like the modern church.

According to the Orthodox Church they are the only original Church and trace their history right back to the Apostles. They only recognise the deliberations of the first seven synods up to and including Nicaea.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.

Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.

The "ecclesia" is the body of believers, as in the early church before constantine twisted it into an earthly organization built in the model of Roman government.
Christ is the head of His church, not some dude or woman in a fish hat.

According to the Bible, which ought to be our source and is for the true believer, We are to seek Holy Spirit guidance for every thought, word, and deed. Not the "religious" whom Jesus Himself guided us to reject and who ended up crucifying Him.

'The church' needs to get back to the truth.

'The church' needs to stop being greedy.

'The church' is watered down.


What are we talking about when we say 'the church'?

Are you talking about the local church as an institution?

Or are you meaning all believers currently alive?

Thing is.. they are not both 'the church '!

I contend "the church' is always local and all believers living now.. is part of the Kingdom of God and Family of God, but not 'the church'

Matthew 18.. context is of a church that can be spoken to.. got to be local.

When Jesus talks of building His church.. Hes referring to continuing to build His churches He started with His His disciples.

The letters in the NT are to local churches. Either one in particular or a group of churches plural.

So .. where is this church of every believer? I dont find it in scripture.

The entity of every believer assembling as a church does eventually happen. That is in scripture.. but it's in prospect

Where in scripture is a church of every believer for now?

According to the Orthodox Church they are the only original Church and trace their history right back to the Apostles. They only recognise the deliberations of the first seven synods up to and including Nicaea.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.

Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.



I have just explained to my limited knowledge of what I know about the history of the Church.
To know what that history explains I suggest you read the history of the Church by Eusebios
and the History of the Jews by Josephus

The church, in Greek, ekklesia , meaning out-calling, or in our case, the called out ones. The elect of God.
Therefore, the church is we who are the holy spirit filled faithful in Christ. And let the ekklesia say, "Amen!"

According to the Bible, which ought to be our source and is for the true believer, We are to seek Holy Spirit guidance for every thought, word, and deed. Not the "religious" whom Jesus Himself guided us to reject and who ended up crucifying Him.

Thats nice, but I am not really interested in the past, everything with Christi is now and into the future.

Called out.. to an ecclessia = called out from an abode to a popular meeting, gathering.

For a New Testament church.. called out to meet as a saved, baptized group to worship Jesus.

In John 16 jesus teaches this

Therefore, as all of God’s people never have yet assembled together, there is today no “universal Church” or “Assembly.” That “Church” is yet future; as yet it has no concrete or corporate existence.

This is not only very disingenuous but also very misleading. While the word church does mean "assembly" it also means "called out ones". In Scripture the Body of Christ is called "the Church". This is an INVISIBLE spiritual entity consisting of all the true children of God (regardless of denomination). Christ is the invisible Head of the Church.

Well okay, so what then do you do with 1 Corinthians 12, where the church at Corinth is called the body of Christ?


What about Matthew 16:18, where references to church are in a local sense 21 times and then this time it is supposed to be universal?

That's odds of 21 times to 1 that its meaning is local. Why would Jesus initially refer to the church in the universal sense, and then from there only local.

And then if course Jesus saying He will build His church.. this us future tense. If this includes all believers then Old Testament saints would be part of it, but they are not.

There is a whole lot more to this in scripture also.

Surely the universal entity is in The Family of God rather than the body of Christ.

Called out.. to an ecclessia = called out from an abode to a popular meeting, gathering.

For a New Testament church.. called out to meet as a saved, baptized group to worship Jesus.

Hi wattie,

The `ekklesia` the Church, the Body of Christ, are the called out ones - called out from Israel and the nations to be a new man. (Eph. 1: 23, & 2: 15) Israel is also an `ekklesia,` called out from the nations.

It is the Holy Spirit that `sets` the members in place, not man & his meetings. (1 Cor. 12: 18) Remember that the Lord said that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, then He is there in the midst. (Matt. 18: 20)