What do we mean by 'the church'
- Thread starter wattie
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The issue with having the body of Christ as a spiritual organisation that is invisible and universal is the terms in scripture used of describing the body are of :
-togetherness
-closeness
-members in it, share each others pain 'when one member suffers, all suffer with it'
- the church at Corinth is called 'the body of Christ' .... 'ye are the body of Christ'
-defined by assembly
-as a unit
These are all terms not of a body scattered all over the world and never meeting-- which would be that universal body... but of local assembly.
-togetherness
-closeness
-members in it, share each others pain 'when one member suffers, all suffer with it'
- the church at Corinth is called 'the body of Christ' .... 'ye are the body of Christ'
-defined by assembly
-as a unit
These are all terms not of a body scattered all over the world and never meeting-- which would be that universal body... but of local assembly.
Good topic. The short answer is -
`(Paul) `You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.` (2 Tim. 2: 1 & 2)
1. Paul.(amid peers)
2. Timothy. (taught by Paul)
3. Faithful men. ( taught by Timothy)
4. Others. (taught by faithful men)
5. More...(taught by the others.)
6. & so on.
It is all relational, connected and functioning together. It is not a lecture type public meeting, it is not man`s organisations, it is not a few `lording it over` the believers, it is the believers making disciples and then helping them make disciples. All connected, related and knowing and appreciating each other`s giftings.
Marilyn.
`(Paul) `You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.` (2 Tim. 2: 1 & 2)
1. Paul.(amid peers)
2. Timothy. (taught by Paul)
3. Faithful men. ( taught by Timothy)
4. Others. (taught by faithful men)
5. More...(taught by the others.)
6. & so on.
It is all relational, connected and functioning together. It is not a lecture type public meeting, it is not man`s organisations, it is not a few `lording it over` the believers, it is the believers making disciples and then helping them make disciples. All connected, related and knowing and appreciating each other`s giftings.
Marilyn.
Hi wattie, Since Paul operated that was we see it is not just a `fine ideal.` We, over here operate that way also and it is a fine way to function as the local Body of Christ. We know each other`s giftings and who we are reaching out to. Then across the area we sometimes meet up with those operating in their town.
So...to your `don`t have that connectedness,` comment. I don`t see say 500 people in a public meeting actually really `connecting.` I think the most that we can properly relate to is quite few, and then out from there know the other connections to a lesser degree.
I liken it to say your family. Let`s say you have 4 children and then as adults they marry and each have a few children. That would come to about 16 - 20 people. When you have a family gathering, do you know them all? Of course, I hope you would. Then when your grandchildren mature, marry and have children, then the possibility of relationships can be quite large - say they had 2 -3 children each that would be over 50 people at a large gathering. These numbers are just examples.
2- Parent
4 - children
14 - grandchildren
30 - great grandchildren.
= 50 relationships. (Obviously more or less.)
Now you don`t have to meet each week to still be related and you don`t have to all meet all the time to be related. I think a big obstacle in people`s minds is that the gathering has to be in big numbers. Jesus said 2 or 3 & there I am in the midst.
We make it all so involved that someone else has to organise us!!!!! Really? I thought it was the Holy Spirit who is guiding the Body of Christ. I`m not having a go at you, but just speaking the general `we,` as to what `we` have let happen to us, & me included. However many years ago I stopped and started relating to whom the Lord sent, and now the `family` of relationships has grown with everyone knowing and appreciating each other`s giftings and we function very well.
A big emphasis (in the different core groups) is on sharing what we hear the Lord saying, and then how we are able to help out in the community to others - helps, food, care, etc.
A very simple way of life and relating, actually real and not with a `meeting face.`
`...we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more (in love towards each other) that you also aspire to lead a QUIET LIFE, to mind your own business, and to work with your hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly towards those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.` (1 Thess. 4: 10 - 12)
Functioning this way, the Body functioning way, takes the pressure off trying to get people to meetings, and frees us to focus on helping people in their everyday life.
Marilyn.
So...to your `don`t have that connectedness,` comment. I don`t see say 500 people in a public meeting actually really `connecting.` I think the most that we can properly relate to is quite few, and then out from there know the other connections to a lesser degree.
I liken it to say your family. Let`s say you have 4 children and then as adults they marry and each have a few children. That would come to about 16 - 20 people. When you have a family gathering, do you know them all? Of course, I hope you would. Then when your grandchildren mature, marry and have children, then the possibility of relationships can be quite large - say they had 2 -3 children each that would be over 50 people at a large gathering. These numbers are just examples.
2- Parent
4 - children
14 - grandchildren
30 - great grandchildren.
= 50 relationships. (Obviously more or less.)
Now you don`t have to meet each week to still be related and you don`t have to all meet all the time to be related. I think a big obstacle in people`s minds is that the gathering has to be in big numbers. Jesus said 2 or 3 & there I am in the midst.
We make it all so involved that someone else has to organise us!!!!! Really? I thought it was the Holy Spirit who is guiding the Body of Christ. I`m not having a go at you, but just speaking the general `we,` as to what `we` have let happen to us, & me included. However many years ago I stopped and started relating to whom the Lord sent, and now the `family` of relationships has grown with everyone knowing and appreciating each other`s giftings and we function very well.
A big emphasis (in the different core groups) is on sharing what we hear the Lord saying, and then how we are able to help out in the community to others - helps, food, care, etc.
A very simple way of life and relating, actually real and not with a `meeting face.`
`...we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more (in love towards each other) that you also aspire to lead a QUIET LIFE, to mind your own business, and to work with your hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly towards those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.` (1 Thess. 4: 10 - 12)
Functioning this way, the Body functioning way, takes the pressure off trying to get people to meetings, and frees us to focus on helping people in their everyday life.
Marilyn.
The church is one. It always has been one. For there is one body, and the body is worldwide. Matthew 16 and 18 tell us that Jesus is creating His church, and later tells His disciples to go out into the world teaching all to observe all that Jesus commanded.
No matter how many attend an assembly, big or small, coliseum or house or field or backyard, denominational or nondenominational, the church is one body and consists of those that are born again - saved by God's grace through their faith in the Lord Jesus.
No matter how many attend an assembly, big or small, coliseum or house or field or backyard, denominational or nondenominational, the church is one body and consists of those that are born again - saved by God's grace through their faith in the Lord Jesus.
-
1
- Show all
Okay, yes well what a lot of peeps are calling the body of Christ of every believer now, I believe scripture is calling part if the Family of God.
So with your descriptions of family type relations, where you don't have to be assembled, but are still related... I would say that isn't a local body of Christ.
Kingdom of God.. widest circle.. Family of God.. inside that.. local body of Christ within that. Body as in assembly, group, so there can be multiple.
So with your descriptions of family type relations, where you don't have to be assembled, but are still related... I would say that isn't a local body of Christ.
Kingdom of God.. widest circle.. Family of God.. inside that.. local body of Christ within that. Body as in assembly, group, so there can be multiple.
"When Jesus talks of building His church" it talks about his elect, not the nonelect. Also 1000 year kingdom started during Pentecost, when God started giving the Holy Spirit to his elect.
Luke 17:20-21
King James Version
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17:20-21
King James Version
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
I see something like that.
The Kingdom of God is everything. God made it all, he never gave it away and no one ever took it from Him.
`The earth is the Lord`s and the fullness thereof, the world and they that dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)
The Family of God - OT saints,(just men) Body of Christ, (church) nation of Israel, those of the nations who are saved. (Heb. 12: 23, Rev. 21: 24)
The Body of Christ - all believers who are `set` in the Body by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 18) How they gather is varied and by the Holy Spirit & not by man`s will for public meetings. (Col. 3: 16, Eph. 5: 19 - 21)
The Kingdom of God is everything. God made it all, he never gave it away and no one ever took it from Him.
`The earth is the Lord`s and the fullness thereof, the world and they that dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)
The Family of God - OT saints,(just men) Body of Christ, (church) nation of Israel, those of the nations who are saved. (Heb. 12: 23, Rev. 21: 24)
The Body of Christ - all believers who are `set` in the Body by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 18) How they gather is varied and by the Holy Spirit & not by man`s will for public meetings. (Col. 3: 16, Eph. 5: 19 - 21)
Well Matthew 18..
Jesus is talking about the process for resolving disputes with a sinning brother. There is even the term..'tell it to the church' .. so it's got to be of a local assembly, local church.
Matthew 16.. this is like 'the cat' or 'the dog'
One animal representing many. 'The dog is a magnificent animal'
That's not one universal dog, but singular standing for plural.
So Jesus says I will build my church..
Similar thing.. singular standing for plural churches.
Jesus is talking about the process for resolving disputes with a sinning brother. There is even the term..'tell it to the church' .. so it's got to be of a local assembly, local church.
Matthew 16.. this is like 'the cat' or 'the dog'
One animal representing many. 'The dog is a magnificent animal'
That's not one universal dog, but singular standing for plural.
So Jesus says I will build my church..
Similar thing.. singular standing for plural churches.
Imagine if all you were was a head. All you could do would be to think and plan and hope that someone would do things for you. You would communicate your desires in the hope that someone would carry them out.
The church is meant to be carrying out the instructions of the Head. Lord Jesus reveals His will for each individual believer in the believer's spirit. Ideally, the believer obeys and so the will of the Head gets done. The problem is that there is a great deal of interference, so to speak, between the communication in the spirit man and what is heard in the soul. The soul is what is meant to communicate the will of the Lord Jesus to the physical body. A simple example. An obviously homeless man walks by. Lord Jesus says, "Give him $50.00." The mind recalls that there is $50.00 in the wallet and instructs the hand to take it out. The mouth puts the thoughts into words and tells the man the $50.00 is a gift from God.
The problem comes when there is interference. Doubt and unbelief queries if it was really Jesus speaking. Natural fear says that you can't afford that much. Something tells you that he's a loser and does not deserve help. And so on. Now either we accept the will of Lord Jesus and give or we allow the interference to stop us. The former pleases God, blesses and testifies to the homeless guy and we get blessed because we give. The latter robs the man of $50.00, hinders the witness that God willed for him and we miss out on God's blessing.
At the church level, all this is multiplied. And every believer is different and has a different calling. God causes some to be preachers and teachers. Others are prophets, or evangelists or apostles. Yes, there are apostles. These are the servants to the church to build her up. Other believers are like supporters to the servants of God. They go to work and earn money to pay for travel expenses or to allow the servants of God to be financially supported. There are musicians, elders and so on.
There are problems in the church as the Body. Much of the trouble is because relatively few Christians are consecrated to the will of God. They see church attendance as their duty and that's about it. Many church attenders are not born again. They are not only of no help, they are a hindrance. There is too much jealousy and selfish ambition. Too many Christians want to be leaders, not realising that leaders have to be servants in heart. There is too much emphasis on natural talent and ability. This leads to impressive structures that fail the "fire" test. God will light a match under all of our works. That which was instigated and empowered by Him will not burn. What was achieved according to good intentions and the power of self will be consumed.
The day will come when the world turns against the church in the Western world. It's happening now. Christians will have to go underground. Fakers will have to pay too high a price and will quit. The real Christians will have to get real with God because there will be too much pressure to bear. This is what happens in places like North Korea, China, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. The church is for real in those places. Their lives depend on it.
The church is meant to be carrying out the instructions of the Head. Lord Jesus reveals His will for each individual believer in the believer's spirit. Ideally, the believer obeys and so the will of the Head gets done. The problem is that there is a great deal of interference, so to speak, between the communication in the spirit man and what is heard in the soul. The soul is what is meant to communicate the will of the Lord Jesus to the physical body. A simple example. An obviously homeless man walks by. Lord Jesus says, "Give him $50.00." The mind recalls that there is $50.00 in the wallet and instructs the hand to take it out. The mouth puts the thoughts into words and tells the man the $50.00 is a gift from God.
The problem comes when there is interference. Doubt and unbelief queries if it was really Jesus speaking. Natural fear says that you can't afford that much. Something tells you that he's a loser and does not deserve help. And so on. Now either we accept the will of Lord Jesus and give or we allow the interference to stop us. The former pleases God, blesses and testifies to the homeless guy and we get blessed because we give. The latter robs the man of $50.00, hinders the witness that God willed for him and we miss out on God's blessing.
At the church level, all this is multiplied. And every believer is different and has a different calling. God causes some to be preachers and teachers. Others are prophets, or evangelists or apostles. Yes, there are apostles. These are the servants to the church to build her up. Other believers are like supporters to the servants of God. They go to work and earn money to pay for travel expenses or to allow the servants of God to be financially supported. There are musicians, elders and so on.
There are problems in the church as the Body. Much of the trouble is because relatively few Christians are consecrated to the will of God. They see church attendance as their duty and that's about it. Many church attenders are not born again. They are not only of no help, they are a hindrance. There is too much jealousy and selfish ambition. Too many Christians want to be leaders, not realising that leaders have to be servants in heart. There is too much emphasis on natural talent and ability. This leads to impressive structures that fail the "fire" test. God will light a match under all of our works. That which was instigated and empowered by Him will not burn. What was achieved according to good intentions and the power of self will be consumed.
The day will come when the world turns against the church in the Western world. It's happening now. Christians will have to go underground. Fakers will have to pay too high a price and will quit. The real Christians will have to get real with God because there will be too much pressure to bear. This is what happens in places like North Korea, China, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. The church is for real in those places. Their lives depend on it.
You are right in what you say and it is a blight on the real church. I refuse to become a church member now (I was for 8 years in two different places). I was born into the church. It seems ridiculous to apply to be a member of your own family.
Love the unbelievers, but don't let them be deluded into thinking that they are Christians. Who would build a structure of marble with ordinary clay bricks scattered through? We are the living temple made up of living stones. Church life is for believers. We give people the benefit of the doubt is they profess to be Christian. We will invite them home for a meal and show them the love of the Lord. But we also listen to their testimony to ensure that they are for real. Some have realised that they were not truly saved and have accepted Christ. Others decided that we were too full on and left us.
Love the unbelievers, but don't let them be deluded into thinking that they are Christians. Who would build a structure of marble with ordinary clay bricks scattered through? We are the living temple made up of living stones. Church life is for believers. We give people the benefit of the doubt is they profess to be Christian. We will invite them home for a meal and show them the love of the Lord. But we also listen to their testimony to ensure that they are for real. Some have realised that they were not truly saved and have accepted Christ. Others decided that we were too full on and left us.
-
2
- Show all
Of Matthew 16:18..
The references of Jesus every other time of church are of a local assembly and so therefore there would be no reason for Matthew 16:18 to be about an entity of every believer.
I will build my church.. church equals ecclessia in the Greek and every other time its mentioned by Jesus it is of the local assembly.
The references of Jesus every other time of church are of a local assembly and so therefore there would be no reason for Matthew 16:18 to be about an entity of every believer.
I will build my church.. church equals ecclessia in the Greek and every other time its mentioned by Jesus it is of the local assembly.
Phillipians
1:15-18
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.(A)17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition,(B) not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.(C) 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
2 tim 2:20
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
i believe that because most “heavy volume” churches are filled with “wood” articles — we deem them not to even be part of the “large house”.
We stand in judgement of their little or mediocre faith… simply because GOD may have given us what we perceive to be strong,teacher-like faith (gold/silver article)
So as long as they preach Christ they are called by Christ, but don't expect all to function the same.
I wrestled and flirted with the thought of dislike/disdain for the mediocrity of the common “church” till i realized that NOT ALL ARE DESIGNED TO be the same within (1) large body.
Who is (NOT) the church? Jews, hindus, muslims… the other 60% of the world population that not only DO NOT preach jesus, but Denie Jesus al-together.
Have mercy & compassion for those wood articles who show little understanding and little faith for they are brothers who did not have the grace of receiving a highly blessed faith.
1:15-18
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.(A)17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition,(B) not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.(C) 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
2 tim 2:20
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
i believe that because most “heavy volume” churches are filled with “wood” articles — we deem them not to even be part of the “large house”.
We stand in judgement of their little or mediocre faith… simply because GOD may have given us what we perceive to be strong,teacher-like faith (gold/silver article)
So as long as they preach Christ they are called by Christ, but don't expect all to function the same.
I wrestled and flirted with the thought of dislike/disdain for the mediocrity of the common “church” till i realized that NOT ALL ARE DESIGNED TO be the same within (1) large body.
Who is (NOT) the church? Jews, hindus, muslims… the other 60% of the world population that not only DO NOT preach jesus, but Denie Jesus al-together.
Have mercy & compassion for those wood articles who show little understanding and little faith for they are brothers who did not have the grace of receiving a highly blessed faith.
Important and great post you left , needs to be considered by believers
there is the church and body of Christ who abide here
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:9-10 KJV
and of course the other group there are part of a contrary church claiming the same name but not the same doctrine
this doesn’t mean they are perfect people but it means they are abiding in Christ and his will in the gospel to whatever extent they have been made able by hearing and. Elievong and growing into his love taught in his doctrine which keeps us where we need to be like a perfect compass for our conscience it guides us when we don’t know what dorection to step in
that church knows the lord because they have accepted his word and come to know the father
then there’s those built by this word and they are the other church following one who appears to have been crucified and slain and is still alive , but his words aren’t those of a lamb and his prophets speak as a dragon and disregards repentance and righteousness in Christ
They are built on this cracked foundation
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:2-4 KJV
if we look back tonthe very beginning we see it clearly God comes to man and speaks the truth and then the other guy comes along trying to remove that word and speak the contrary deceptions
who we believe and follow is the church we belong to
there is the church and body of Christ who abide here
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:9-10 KJV
and of course the other group there are part of a contrary church claiming the same name but not the same doctrine
this doesn’t mean they are perfect people but it means they are abiding in Christ and his will in the gospel to whatever extent they have been made able by hearing and. Elievong and growing into his love taught in his doctrine which keeps us where we need to be like a perfect compass for our conscience it guides us when we don’t know what dorection to step in
that church knows the lord because they have accepted his word and come to know the father
then there’s those built by this word and they are the other church following one who appears to have been crucified and slain and is still alive , but his words aren’t those of a lamb and his prophets speak as a dragon and disregards repentance and righteousness in Christ
They are built on this cracked foundation
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:2-4 KJV
if we look back tonthe very beginning we see it clearly God comes to man and speaks the truth and then the other guy comes along trying to remove that word and speak the contrary deceptions
who we believe and follow is the church we belong to
According to the Orthodox Church they are the only original Church and trace their history right back to the Apostles. They only recognise the deliberations of the first seven synods up to and including Nicaea.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.
Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.
After that the then current Bishop of Rome { I think it was Leo) promoted himself from being the first
among equals among the Metropolitan Bishops to being ''Pope" He claimed to be Christs representative on Earth and being infallible as far as spiritual matters are concerned. He sent this declaration to the
Church at Constantinople. And his two representatives were sent packing. The Popes declaration was thrown in the gutter.
Since the Catholic Church is considered by the Orthodox to be run by a long list of Heretics their logic
is that Martin Luther and co didn't go far enough to restore what they consider the true Apostolic teachings and every Denomination and Church stemming from the Reformation are just Heretical
versions of Catholicism some of which retains more light than others but are still outside the Orthodox fold.