Are we saved by faith alone or is works necessary?

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John146

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I'm glad you believe, but James said even the demons believe. Belief is only half the picture. Failure to understand that we must also bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance is to ignore half of the scripture you don't like. It's equivalent to Noah building the ark then refusing to get on.
What does the book of James say that the demons believe? They believe there is one God. That's different than believing that Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.

9 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 

John146

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I'm glad you believe, but James said even the demons believe. Belief is only half the picture. Failure to understand that we must also bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance is to ignore half of the scripture you don't like. It's equivalent to Noah building the ark then refusing to get on.
Noah didn't have the shed blood of Jesus Christ to wash away his sins. We do!!!!!
 

Gideon300

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Salvation is a free gift of grace we receive thru faith. So prior to salvation, our works are essentially meaningless. There are no amount of good works that will get you in, there is no amount of bad works that will exclude you. The foundation of free salvation is completely and totally unrelated to our works.

But after salvation, our works mean everything. God says that when we are gathered to be with Him, we will be judged by our works. Those who build upon the foundation of free salvation with good works will be rewarded, those who build upon the foundation of free salvation with bad works will suffer loss.

Now, I believe that loss is one's place as part of Christ's Bride. But that is a whole 'nother thread

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-the-church-the-bride-of-christ.201135/
My question is what do you mean by "good works"? If you mean doing your best according to what you read in the Bible, then you are wrong. If you mean following the leading of the Holy Spirit within and obeying according to the life of Christ within, then you are right.

Faith without works is dead. Works without faith are just as dead. Lord Jesus says that apart from Him, we can do nothing. And that is how God judges anything we do apart from Christ - nothing of any spiritual worth.
 

ResidentAlien

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"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"—James 2:22

"Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you."—Revelation 3:2-3

Five of the seven letters to the churches in Revelation start with "I know your works. . ." Faith is mentioned twice. There are references to being faithful, but only two times do they clearly references "faith." The Lord is making note of their works and evaluating them based on them.

I know there will still be those who will scoff and refuse to listen. That's okay, you can't say you weren't warned
 

Gardenias

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Pauls letters are to the body of Christ. Christ’s earthly ministry was to the Jews.




FULL STOP :
I am studying the first believers vs the now believers.
Since Jesus said he came to the lost of Israel,was his message only for Jews?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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Sadly its human nature to boast of our works.

Amen, We do things out of love, Not out of obligation. People make works an obligation and in turn it turns to self righteousness, and not Christ’s righteousness
When we accept Christ in our hearts, then Christ takes over and we live through Christ, not the world where human nature reigns.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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FULL STOP :
I am studying the first believers vs the now believers.
Since Jesus said he came to the lost of Israel,was his message only for Jews?
Yes, it was not to for the Samaritans or Gentiles. The message was concerning the promised deliverance and restoration of Israel's kingdom. This was good news for the Jews. See Luke 1:67-75.
 

Gardenias

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I like this explanation of salvation, it is so true.

I have studying the church as the apostles created it, before it was so changed in 313, so it is influencing my thinking. Befpre. I always accepted that following Christ was a matter of understanding theology, but the first church didn't think like that. It was a church that lived in the life of its members, Their faith was in accepting all Christ told them to do without question.

With this in mind, and the bible verses I have posted about it, the wonderful truths you have brought up does not really answer the question of what God considers faith. If we accept Christ in our life, does that change our actions or is faith simply a matter of theology and if we don't follow the Lord it is not our fault but the Lord's fault?


I too am starting a study of the first believers vs the now believers.
I started a thread @Blik,don't know that it will pass.
If as @John146 says Jesus message was only to Israel,how did the first believers act?
 

John146

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If as @John146 says Jesus message was only to Israel,how did the first believers act?
I'm not understanding the question. Remember, the disciples had no idea about the cross. It was hid from them.

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
 

Gardenias

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I'm not understanding the question. Remember, the disciples had no idea about the cross. It was hid from them.

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.



There was no question.
If Jesus message of his DBR and belief in his bloods saving power was for the Jews,his disciples were Jews and most probably those first believers,how did they act,all Jewish or part Jewish?

Sorry if that run on makes no sense, I'm struggling with this.
 

Blik

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Dec 6, 2016
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Noah didn't have the shed blood of Jesus Christ to wash away his sins. We do!!!!!
The blood of Jesus to save sins was given the minute Adam and Eve brought us death through sin. For 4.000 years this was incomplete and only preserved the saints as Matthews tells us, but Christ was the base of the sacrificial system. Through Christ, Noah walked the streets of Jerusalem when Christ was crucified.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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There was no question.
If Jesus message of his DBR and belief in his bloods saving power was for the Jews,his disciples were Jews and most probably those first believers,how did they act,all Jewish or part Jewish?

Sorry if that run on makes no sense, I'm struggling with this.
It was a mystery since the world began. It was slowly revealed to his apostles. Paul was given the full revelation.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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The blood of Jesus to save sins was given the minute Adam and Eve brought us death through sin. For 4.000 years this was incomplete and only preserved the saints as
Matthews tells us, but Christ was the base of the sacrificial system. Through Christ, Noah walked the streets of Jerusalem when Christ was crucified.
The blood of Jesus was only applied to those Old Testament saints after the fact when the Lord visited Abraham’s bosom after his death on the cross. Those saints didn’t have what we have today.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
FULL STOP :
I am studying the first believers vs the now believers.
Since Jesus said he came to the lost of Israel,was his message only for Jews?
The same message that went to the jew went to Samaria then to the rest of the world.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I too am starting a study of the first believers vs the now believers.
I started a thread @Blik,don't know that it will pass.
If as @John146 says Jesus message was only to Israel,how did the first believers act?
the gospel is the same for all people. We are saved by grace through faith. Just like Israel was. John 3 4 and 6 shows that it is faith that gives eternal life.

There is only one gospel. John wants us to think there was one gospel to the jews and one for us. Thats not true
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There was no question.
If Jesus message of his DBR and belief in his bloods saving power was for the Jews,his disciples were Jews and most probably those first believers,how did they act,all Jewish or part Jewish?

Sorry if that run on makes no sense, I'm struggling with this.
The law was a schoolmaster given to Israel. So it is not odd when we see that parts of the law is used to help teach the gospel to the jew

The law was not given to the gentile. So it is also not odd that parts of the law are NOT used to teach a gentile Gods truth

It does not mean they are being taught different gospels. It just means we use what people know and use that to show God.
 
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Titus 3:4-8 “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Does this mean that the faith they speak of is of the mind only, or does our faith have to include acting out our faith?

Scripture does not answer this question directly, but James tells us faith without works is dead and Christ tells us that being a Christian is not a matter of only how we think but includes what we do.

"Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven."(NASB) Matt. 7:21

There is no such thing as “faith alone” in the Bible. It’s a clear contradiction to the principle of faith.



Faith must have the action of obedience or else it remains incomplete and inactive, dormant or “dead”, and thus unable to produce the intended Divine result.




Paul says it this way —



But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26








JPT
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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What does the book of James say that the demons believe? They believe there is one God. That's different than believing that Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.

9 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Amen! The demons certainly do believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) and they also believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" BUT they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16) like believers do.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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There is no such thing as “faith alone” in the Bible. It’s a clear contradiction to the principle of faith.
Not actually. Don't confuse salvation through faith in Christ alone - "apart from works" (Romans 4:5-6) with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14)

Faith must have the action of obedience or else it remains incomplete and inactive, dormant or “dead”, and thus unable to produce the intended Divine result.
Are saying that dead faith produces obedience/works in order to become a living faith? That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. Faith is made alive in Christ FIRST and then afterwards it produces obedience/good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Something that is dead cannot produce anything.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: *Nothing mentioned here about Abraham's faith being incomplete to save him until many years later "after" he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:22, faith "made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Paul says it this way —

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
Paul is not teaching salvation through faith + obedience/works here. Now although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

Just as we read in Romans 1:5 - Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience/works afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.
 

Gardenias

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The law was a schoolmaster given to Israel. So it is not odd when we see that parts of the law is used to help teach the gospel to the jew

The law was not given to the gentile. So it is also not odd that parts of the law are NOT used to teach a gentile Gods truth

It does not mean they are being taught different gospels. It just means we use what people know and use that to show God.



I understand all of that what I'm wondering about did Peter and the Apostles ( other than Paul) carry on with the acts of Judaism as they were brought up with Jesus' teachings incorporated?
I know the name and blood of Jesus is our only salvation.