Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

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Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
#81
another expert

straight off the nearest heresy hunter site

I've made it plain there is error and too much of it...BUT how about the pew warmers who check their watches every 15 minutes?

I've been in services where you were disappointed when 3 hours did not seem long enough

what do you know about 'God's people'? really...just what do you think you know smh
I thought it was a joke but there really is a heresy hunter website. And they're none to appreciated by many who criticize him at different links that pop when searching to HH website either.

https://heresyhunter.blogspot.com

And to think, to the Pharisee's and Sadducees, Jesus was considered a Heretic.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
5,624
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#82
Fine, but bible teaches us for to ask and pray in the name of our Lord Jesus to our heavenly father. Jesus gave the so called Lordsprayer. You can read Pauls letter to the ephesians or the philliper. Adressat for the praise is always God the father. No Single example to praise or pray to the Holy Spirit.
Why? It is what God wants so.
If you say you tell the Holy Spirit you love Him, then you dont tell Jesus or the father that you love Him. Thats my impression.
Why? The Holy Spirit isn't a separate God from Jesus & YHVH. The Lord God is one.
Jesus taught us the proper way to pray that's true but he wasn't putting a ban on all other forms of prayer.
God WANTS to fellowship with us.

BTW I've never suggested I don't pray to Jesus & Father God.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,420
113
#83
Fine, but bible teaches us for to ask and pray in the name of our Lord Jesus to our heavenly father. Jesus gave the so called Lordsprayer. You can read Pauls letter to the ephesians or the philliper. Adressat for the praise is always God the father. No Single example to praise or pray to the Holy Spirit.
Why? It is what God wants so.
If you say you tell the Holy Spirit you love Him, then you dont tell Jesus or the father that you love Him. Thats my impression.
That’s not my impression. One cannot love the Holy Spirit and not love the Father or Son at the same time. It is like how love for the Father is to have love for the Son, the Lord Jesus.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,592
3,175
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#84
Okay, I'm going to break this down even further. Those who mock will continue to mock; those with wisdom may learn something.

The fact that attempts have been made to discredit and marginalize me by mischaracterizing what I'm saying, and labeling me a "complainer," convinces me all the more I've hit on something. And it just proves that the scoffers really have no sound counterarguments so they resort to personal attacks.

The lyric's to Jobe's song, "Holy Spirt," go:

Holy Spirit, You are welcome here​
Come flood this place and fill the atmosphere​

In the first place, the Holy Spirit doesn't need our permission to go anywhere or do anything. He does as He wills, not as we will. It's a totally arrogant thing to think we can tell the Holy Spirit: Okay, you can come now, you have our permission.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit doesn't need to flood the atmosphere. He lives within each one of us if we're born again. This notion of "filling the atmosphere" comes from the idea of Territorial Spirits. These are demonic spirits that rule the atmosphere of certain geographical areas. Before a city or region can be won for Christ, the territorial spirits must first be banished, or so it is taught especially by the New Apostolic Reformation. The NAR promotes a plan called the Seven Mountains Mandate, a form of dominionism. The idea is to take back for Christianity the seven spheres of influence now ruled by Satan and his demons. They are: government, media, family, business, education, church, and the arts. Notice the church is included in this list.
In order to take back these spheres, Christians are encouraged to do battle with the demons and cast them out. Then the doors will open for "Christianity" to step in a assume its rightful place as rulers. It stands to reason that if the leadership of the NAR (the "apostles" and "prophets") will inherit these kingdoms, they'll also inherit the church itself—theoretically at least, assuming their plan succeeds. Rather than casting out the demons, IMO the demons are actually helping them.

No doubt I'll be labeled further as crazy or a complainer. That's okay. This is a real thing and all anyone has to do is look into it. I'm not sure if the Seven Mountains Mandate will succeed or fail; I don't really care. My whole point is to simply show where this idea of conjuring the "Holy Spirit" to fill the atmosphere comes from. It has gotten so far from preaching the gospel and making disciples it's absurd.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,420
113
#86
Okay, I'm going to break this down even further. Those who mock will continue to mock; those with wisdom may learn something.

The fact that attempts have been made to discredit and marginalize me by mischaracterizing what I'm saying, and labeling me a "complainer," convinces me all the more I've hit on something. And it just proves that the scoffers really have no sound counterarguments so they resort to personal attacks.

The lyric's to Jobe's song, "Holy Spirt," go:

Holy Spirit, You are welcome here​
Come flood this place and fill the atmosphere​

In the first place, the Holy Spirit doesn't need our permission to go anywhere or do anything. He does as He wills, not as we will. It's a totally arrogant thing to think we can tell the Holy Spirit: Okay, you can come now, you have our permission.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit doesn't need to flood the atmosphere. He lives within each one of us if we're born again. This notion of "filling the atmosphere" comes from the idea of Territorial Spirits. These are demonic spirits that rule the atmosphere of certain geographical areas. Before a city or region can be won for Christ, the territorial spirits must first be banished, or so it is taught especially by the New Apostolic Reformation. The NAR promotes a plan called the Seven Mountains Mandate, a form of dominionism. The idea is to take back for Christianity the seven spheres of influence now ruled by Satan and his demons. They are: government, media, family, business, education, church, and the arts. Notice the church is included in this list.
In order to take back these spheres, Christians are encouraged to do battle with the demons and cast them out. Then the doors will open for "Christianity" to step in a assume its rightful place as rulers. It stands to reason that if the leadership of the NAR (the "apostles" and "prophets") will inherit these kingdoms, they'll also inherit the church itself—theoretically at least, assuming their plan succeeds. Rather than casting out the demons, IMO the demons are actually helping them.

No doubt I'll be labeled further as crazy or a complainer. That's okay. This is a real thing and all anyone has to do is look into it. I'm not sure if the Seven Mountains Mandate will succeed or fail; I don't really care. My whole point is to simply show where this idea of conjuring the "Holy Spirit" to fill the atmosphere comes from. This has gotten so far from preaching the gospel and making disciples it's absurd.
For myself I don’t see any wrong in Kari Jobe’s song Holy Spirit. My perspective on the lyrics is different. When she says “ Holy Spirit you are welcome here” I don’t see this as a commanding of the Spirit. I see it more as a desire for the filling of the Spirit and his presence. Welcoming the Holy Spirit may mean different things depending on who you talk to. For me to welcome the Spirit is to want the Holy Spirit to fill me and teach me and that I would be more Christlike in my character through being filled with the Spirit.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,592
3,175
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#88
When she says “ Holy Spirit you are welcome here” I don’t see this as a commanding of the Spirit.
I never said it was commanding the Spirit. More misrepresentation of what I actually said.

I see it more as a desire for the filling of the Spirit and his presence. Welcoming the Holy Spirit may mean different things depending on who you talk to. For me to welcome the Spirit is to want the Holy Spirit to fill me and teach me and that I would be more Christlike in my character through being filled with the Spirit.
I would be on board with this if she hadn't said "flood this place and fill the atmosphere." The lyrics invite the "spirit" to fill the atmosphere of the place, not people. And besides, we don't have to invite the Spirit to fill us, He's already in us.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,420
113
#89
I never said it was commanding the Spirit. More misrepresentation of what I actually said.



I would be on board with this if she hadn't said "flood this place and fill the atmosphere." The lyrics invite the "spirit" to fill the atmosphere of the place, not people. And besides, we don't have to invite the Spirit to fill us, He's already in us.
Resident Alien I’m not trying to misrepresent you. It seemed to me from your post you were viewing they were commanding or telling the Spirit what to do from the song.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,592
3,175
113
#90
There's another false teaching that's become pretty influential lately. It's reflected in Jobe's lyrics. It comes mainly from the Word of Faith movement and it says, God can only do that which we give Him permission to do. This ridiculous idea is taught by Kenneth Copeland, Myles Monroe and others. You can find videos about it on YouTube. I'll see if I can find some to post in a little while.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,420
113
#91
I never said it was commanding the Spirit. More misrepresentation of what I actually said.



I would be on board with this if she hadn't said "flood this place and fill the atmosphere." The lyrics invite the "spirit" to fill the atmosphere of the place, not people. And besides, we don't have to invite the Spirit to fill us, He's already in us.
I don’t see any wrong with flood the place and fill the atmosphere either. Say for example if you are in a large gathering, the Spirit leads people to repentance to faith in Christ. If one is alone, singing this, I don’t see wrong with that either. Though I believe if one does not feel right about a song then one should not sing it.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,420
113
#92
There's another false teaching that's become pretty influential lately. It's reflected in Jobe's lyrics. It comes mainly from the Word of Faith movement and it says, God can only do that which we give Him permission to do. This ridiculous idea is taught by Kenneth Copeland, Myles Monroe and others. You can find videos about it on YouTube. I'll see if I can find some to post in a little while.
Interesting. That teaching is clearly false. God can do anything he wants. I’m a bit curious concerning the videos.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,592
3,175
113
#93
Resident Alien I’m not trying to misrepresent you. It seemed to me from your post you were viewing they were commanding or telling the Spirit what to do from the song.
This is what I said:

"In the first place, the Holy Spirit doesn't need our permission to go anywhere or do anything. He does as He wills, not as we will. It's a totally arrogant thing to think we can tell the Holy Spirit: Okay, you can come now, you have our permission."

There's nothing here about commanding the Spirit. I said it's pretty arrogant if you think you have the power to give the Spirit permission to do anything.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,420
113
#94
This is what I said:

"In the first place, the Holy Spirit doesn't need our permission to go anywhere or do anything. He does as He wills, not as we will. It's a totally arrogant thing to think we can tell the Holy Spirit: Okay, you can come now, you have our permission."

There's nothing here about commanding the Spirit. I said it's pretty arrogant if you think you have the power to give the Spirit permission to do anything.
I misunderstood but I get what you’re saying now.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#95
But why calling the Holy Spirit down, if he lives already in every believer?
God can be present in a manifest way or present in unseen ways. Asking the Holy Spirit come down is about requesting God's presence in a manifest way. Remember, God is omnipresent meaning He's everywhere.

Do you believe God still gives people signs, works miracles, answers prayers?
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,680
705
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#96
and you know all about this because, although you have never participated in a meeting where people do not fall asleep, you are an expert because you think so

typical...just like your opinions in the other thread
Well, thats what the bible says.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,680
705
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#97
I don't have that problem

as you say, God knows our hearts

does that make you uncomfortable? you cannot tell other people how to worship anymore than you can mandate others to receive poison into their bodies

you said in the other thread people should be forced to have the covid shot

what would you like to force on people here?
I explained what i meant with forcing.
For me is the biblical teaching more important then Feelings and expieriences, they can lead false way. The Word of God not.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,680
705
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#98
Why? The Holy Spirit isn't a separate God from Jesus & YHVH. The Lord God is one.
Jesus taught us the proper way to pray that's true but he wasn't putting a ban on all other forms of prayer.
God WANTS to fellowship with us.


BTW I've never suggested I don't pray to Jesus & Father God.
Anyway, the Lord sees our heart. So we can pray in any way to Him.
I am not putting a ban on all other forms of prayer. I only said that the NT church teaches to pray in first line to the father and to give Him honour.
I cant see, that the father is honoured in praising the Holy Spirit.
If i want praise the father, then i Adress the praise to him. And not to the Holy Spirit who is sent from the father.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,177
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#99
yea I kind of am wary of adressing the Holy Spirit in that manner because thats kind of like why not just pray to Jesus our our Father we cant tell the Holy Spirit to do OUR bidding (plus, the spirits can call themselves anything, except for the name of JESUS, which is the only name by which anyone can be saved)

so unbelievers who arent saved may be singing this song and welcoming all sorts of spirits...i think is the danger.

John 16:13

tells us the Holy Sprit does not speak for himself but for the Father, does not glorify himself but only the Father...
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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Here's a clip of Myles Munroe saying we give God legal permission to act. Benny Hinn's there lapping it up like it's the most amazing thing he's ever heard.


This next one is of Lindsay Coil from Bethel Redding. You hear her say that by planting the seed you're giving God permission to make it grow. Apparently this video was originally posted by Kris Vallotton, the lead "prophet" at Bethel. I checked Bethel's website and Coil's still on staff there. If you watch the video through, toward the end at about 1:33, a comment by Vallotton pops up: "Bethel School of Ministry Revival Group leader, Lindsay Coil killing it this morning!" Apparently he's in hearty agreement with her.


I'm not sure where this image was taken from but it's apparently some kind of social media post by Gloria Copeland. I can't find any clips of Kenneth Copeland but I'm sure I've seen one at some point. If I ever run across it again I'll post it.

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This is a great video on this teaching which includes some other general information about Word of Faith.