Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

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ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
789
270
63
#1
At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,687
1,173
113
#2
That's a hard question saint. I have for yrs conflicting thoughts on the matter. I believe it's one of the weaknesses of the church today.
I have been lead by the Holy Spirit to praise and worship God when I've heard good news or witnessed God at work.
I have forced praise and worship to proceed out of my mouth just as david discribe in the pslams.
I see worship and praise as a attitude of the heart and not some mood I need to have instilled by words or music.
A celebration of being a child of the most high,
We should enter into his gates with Thanksgiving and praise not come to seek it once there.
Sing to the Lord for he is good and worthy of all praise. Remind your soul refresh your Spirit exalt the Lord and he will lift you up.

Frankly I've never ment anyone to call down the Holy Spirit nor call down fire from heaven. I have been in many situations that the Spirit of the Lord has fallen on to the congregation. The glory of the Lord filling the temple. This was done by God and not by man.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,740
1,842
113
#3
At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.
The Holy Spirit is God. You have a problem with asking God to come down now?

BTW, God coming down is an entirely Biblical concept. Please research these things before posting hit-pieces on people's music. Thank you.

Genesis 11:5
5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Genesis 11:7
7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Micah 1:3
3For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

John 1:33
33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,687
1,173
113
#4

This is in the pouring rain. A little different wouldn't you say?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,372
7,550
113
#5
The Holy Spirit is God. You have a problem with asking God to come down now?
That is not even the issue. Jesus said that where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them. And where Christ is present, the Holy Spirit and the Father are also present. So there is no need to call down the Spirit. Christians need to simply thank God during worship for the fact that Christ -- indeed the triune Godhead -- is ALREADY PRESENT with them.

The Catholics make a big deal out of the "real presence" of Christ in the Eucharist. While the Catholic Eucharist is unbiblical, the real presence of Christ definitely is not, particularly at the Lord's Supper (clearly different from the Eucharist). Acts 4 gives us a glimpse of the presence of the Spirit while Christians were praying earnestly, and Acts 13:1-4 shows us that the Holy Spirit during worship was already present and commissioned Paul and Barnabbas.

1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

As to how Charismatics and/or Pentecostals worship, that is nobody else's business. If they choose to call down the Holy Spirit, it is up to their pastors and elders to teach them Bible truth. They will give account for their worship as others will for theirs.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,443
1,117
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#6
It kinda seems as if many praise and worship songs are modern-day versions of the cries and shouts of the prophets of Baal (cf. 1 Kings 18).
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,034
298
83
#7
The Holy Spirit is God. You have a problem with asking God to come down now?

BTW, God coming down is an entirely Biblical concept. Please research these things before posting hit-pieces on people's music. Thank you.

Genesis 11:5
5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Genesis 11:7
7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Micah 1:3
3For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

John 1:33
33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
The holy spirit is within. When music, and prayers said aloud, or even people speaking out in true language as tongues, are gathered together the Ekklesia rises, the true church, as on Earth as it is in heaven.

The power of God is creator of all that is. All that is, is of and from God.

In such environments, when the power of God rises in the faithful gathered the atmosphere, the energy in the room itself, is electric.
This is when healing prayed for channels into those needing God's healing. When those who are weak become strong, and when they of little faith awaken to all that is holy within and without.

It is a blessing.
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
3,415
1,996
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#8
is it me or is every thread you create anti Pentecostal/Charismatic?
 

Aaron56

Active member
Jul 12, 2021
353
148
43
#9
I am convinced that when they sing "Let your fire fall" they do not know what they're asking. :sneaky:

I was talking with a brother, who was also a close friend at the time, about the gifts of the Spirit. In short, I was confirming that they were for the saints today. He shook his head, looked down, and mumbled, "Oh man."

I asked, "What's up?"

He told me he used to go to a charismatic church where it was demanded of members to always be "on fire for the Lord". You had to demonstrate you were filled with the Holy Spirit at all times: raising your hands during "praise and worship", speaking in tongues, etc. Now, by themselves, I have no issues with raising one's hands during songs or speaking in tongues, but he described a culture in which it was required to show you "had the Holy Spirit" (his words). It frankly wore him out. He felt that he could never measure up to the standards of the church (one of the largest in our area, by the way).

I told him, "I wold have left such a gathering as well."

I have since helped people come out of such cultures. The damage done to them was severe: some were spanked by their parents for not raising their hands during the songs and sent to bed without supper, cursed by church leaders for questioning the pastor or his message, told they would die young if they didn't adhere to church doctrine, etc. One man told me of a time when the pastor asked his mother to divorce her husband because he would not tithe a parcel of land to the church. I could write pages.

My point: while the gifts of the Spirit are authentic, a church culture centered around the gifts produces all kinds of vileness... even "child sacrifice" to appear more "holy" among peers. It's disgusting.

Mind you, I am not indicting all pentecostal or charismatic churches but we should be wary of ANY group that would want to be defined by the gifts.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,034
298
83
#10
I am convinced that when they sing "Let your fire fall" they do not know what they're asking. :sneaky:

I was talking with a brother, who was also a close friend at the time, about the gifts of the Spirit. In short, I was confirming that they were for the saints today. He shook his head, looked down, and mumbled, "Oh man."

I asked, "What's up?"

He told me he used to go to a charismatic church where it was demanded of members to always be "on fire for the Lord". You had to demonstrate you were filled with the Holy Spirit at all times: raising your hands during "praise and worship", speaking in tongues, etc. Now, by themselves, I have no issues with raising one's hands during songs or speaking in tongues, but he described a culture in which it was required to show you "had the Holy Spirit" (his words). It frankly wore him out. He felt that he could never measure up to the standards of the church (one of the largest in our area, by the way).

I told him, "I wold have left such a gathering as well."

I have since helped people come out of such cultures. The damage done to them was severe: some were spanked by their parents for not raising their hands during the songs and sent to bed without supper, cursed by church leaders for questioning the pastor or his message, told they would die young if they didn't adhere to church doctrine, etc. One man told me of a time when the pastor asked his mother to divorce her husband because he would not tithe a parcel of land to the church. I could write pages.

My point: while the gifts of the Spirit are authentic, a church culture centered around the gifts produces all kinds of vileness... even "child sacrifice" to appear more "holy" among peers. It's disgusting.

Mind you, I am not indicting all pentecostal or charismatic churches but we should be wary of ANY group that would want to be defined by the gifts.
1 Peter 4:10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:


Romans 12:6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,824
336
83
#12
At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.
Satan is very smart , intelligent but not so wise.

We are told many times by Jesus and John and Paul to watch out for the deceptions to come.

Everything that God want us to do, Satan will try to twist upside down.

Aliens, Spirits, Ghosts, strange or supernatural powers will all be working to deceive us with the same lie that was told from the beginning.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
1,105
741
113
#13
At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.
Really good question. If people are gathered in the name of Jesus, He is already there. Very often, the intent of "worship" is to please people, not God. Brian Houston was asked why Hillsong was so successful. He said, "We scratch where people itch". That sounds a lot like ear tickling to me.

Music very often stimulates the soul rather than the spirit. The born again are spirit beings. Those who worship God should do so in spirit and in truth, not in banal songs that sound good but have little or no real content.

A number of leading Pentecostals are predicting a "fourth wave", a supposed revival of the Holy Spirit. The first "wave" was genuine but infected with the counterfeit, especially Azusa Street. The second wave was the Charismatic movement in the 70's. There was a lot that was real, but it led to spiritual pride and ended up nowhere. The 90's gave rise to the "Toronto Blessing". It is 100% fake and spread like the plague.

One of the consequences of relying on the manifestations of the Holy Spirit alone, even if genuine, is a lack of sound teaching. The TB flourished because too many people have no real personal relationship with God. They rely on the Pastor to live for them. Pastors are OK with this because a compliant flock is easy to manage. But if the Pastor gets deceived, so do most of his people.

Ignorance is not bliss. It is dangerous. God's people are still destroyed for lack of knowledge. It does not have to be this way. "Test everything and hold fast to that which is good". "Test the spirits......" Blindly following the Pastor is the exact opposite.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,372
7,550
113
#14
is it me or is every thread you create anti Pentecostal/Charismatic?
After all aliens are alienated beings. All they need is some charisma, and it has yet to be found.:cool:
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,267
4,415
113
#15
I remember singing this song together in a church but it wasnt all dark like it is in the vid

I think worship songs are better sung outside in the open air than in a darkened room with mics and stuff. . I mean, a lot of those spaces are now controlled by air conditioning and lighting and sound systems.

Go unplugged.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
1,105
741
113
#16
is it me or is every thread you create anti Pentecostal/Charismatic?
I'm personally against all "isms". I also reject denominations in general. I've been an active member of a Charismatic Baptist and a traditional Pentecostal church. I was youth leader at the Pentecostal assembly.

I heard a demon speak a "message" in what was supposed to be a tongue. No one but me said a word. I had been saved for four years at the time. An elder came to me after the meeting and said that I was right. I did not say so, but I wondered why he did not speak up.

The problem with many who are "spirit filled" is that they do not know the difference between the true Holy Spirit and the false. This eventually lead to the disaster known as the Toronto Blessing. It is fake to the core and a straight out deception. There is even less spiritual knowledge now so people are even more open to deception. Lord Jesus warned us that this would happen.

I accept the baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience that comes after being born again. I believe that all the spiritual gifts are as valid today as they were on the day of Pentecost. A huge problem is that many receive a spirit of spiritual pride along with the true gift. They do not believe that they could be deceived, which is a deception itself. A mainstream Pentecostal denomination in Australia teaches that a Christian cannot have a demon. So their people are bound by evil spirits and never get free.

My eight years as a Charismatic/Pentecostal were a real eye opener. It saddens me to see so many sincere believers led astray and living defeated lives. It does not have to be this way.
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
3,415
1,996
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#17
I'm personally against all "isms". I also reject denominations in general. I've been an active member of a Charismatic Baptist and a traditional Pentecostal church. I was youth leader at the Pentecostal assembly.

I heard a demon speak a "message" in what was supposed to be a tongue. No one but me said a word. I had been saved for four years at the time. An elder came to me after the meeting and said that I was right. I did not say so, but I wondered why he did not speak up.

The problem with many who are "spirit filled" is that they do not know the difference between the true Holy Spirit and the false. This eventually lead to the disaster known as the Toronto Blessing. It is fake to the core and a straight out deception. There is even less spiritual knowledge now so people are even more open to deception. Lord Jesus warned us that this would happen.

I accept the baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience that comes after being born again. I believe that all the spiritual gifts are as valid today as they were on the day of Pentecost. A huge problem is that many receive a spirit of spiritual pride along with the true gift. They do not believe that they could be deceived, which is a deception itself. A mainstream Pentecostal denomination in Australia teaches that a Christian cannot have a demon. So their people are bound by evil spirits and never get free.

My eight years as a Charismatic/Pentecostal were a real eye opener. It saddens me to see so many sincere believers led astray and living defeated lives. It does not have to be this way.

I could have written that post myself except for the personal experience

still though, creating all these threads, per the op, helps no one at all
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
3,415
1,996
113
#19
My point: while the gifts of the Spirit are authentic, a church culture centered around the gifts produces all kinds of vileness... even "child sacrifice" to appear more "holy" among peers. It's disgusting.

Mind you, I am not indicting all pentecostal or charismatic churches but we should be wary of ANY group that would want to be defined by the gifts.

it seems we are seeing this more and more...I've seen plenty of abuse myself

I agree with the rest of your post
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
789
270
63
#20
The Holy Spirit is God. You have a problem with asking God to come down now?

BTW, God coming down is an entirely Biblical concept. Please research these things before posting hit-pieces on people's music. Thank you.

Genesis 11:5
5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Genesis 11:7
7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Micah 1:3
3For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

John 1:33
33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
I totally agree. God came down of His own doing.

But show me an example of the New Testament church "calling down" the Spirit for 45 minutes to an hour. Perhaps you've researched this.