How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up G726 harpazo unto God, and to his throne.
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up harpazo G726 together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You've mixed a few things up there including a presumption about my understanding.
And you seem desperate to tell me something.

that is two returns to this earth - once in the air to snatch away before tribulation and then to come back for a second return to ground level with the Saints - this is 100% clear pre-trib, unbiblical, error.

Lucy,
I cannot be dogmatic regarding the precise sequence and timing, but the "first resurrection" consists of several unique groups and individuals.

-Jesus Himself (firstborn among many brethren)
-the Church
-2 witnesses
-144,000 Israelite "commandos"
-tribulation Saints
-OT Saints

And then we have to deal with Enoch and Elijah. Are they part of the "first resurrection" or not?

IMO, these individuals/groups will be (OR HAVE BEEN) caught up or resurrected at DIFFERENT times. Certainty the 2 witnesses, Enoch and Elijah stand out as irrefutable proof.

BUT.....NONE of them (except for Jesus, Enoch and Elijah) precede the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5 (who identify themselves as the SAME "kings and priests" of Rev 1:6). These of course represent the Church.

No doubt in my mind that the Church has been raptured precisely according as Jewish wedding customs dictate, and this before Daniels 70th week.....the time of the wrath of the Lamb.

Question for you: what is the identity of the 24 Elders? Please see Rev ch 7 to eliminate any confusion!

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

If pre-trib were true you would not be hate me over it.

Biblically speaking (which is what we're on about, right?), the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) speaks ONLY of His RETURN to the earth (i.e. Rev19) and what takes place in such a context:

--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom," not "TO BE WED"... THEN the meal [G347] (this fully agrees with the distinction between Rev19:7 [re: the MARRIAGE itself, pertaining SOLELY TO the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"] and the distinct Rev19:9 [re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" pertaining to the INVITED "Guests [PLURAL]" whom He is NOT MARRYING!])... where this Lk passage is parallel to Matt24:42-51 in His Olivet Discourse (NO RAPTURE is being spoken of in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, as that is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering there, AT ALL!);


--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over ten cities"... and "over five cities"; where also this Lk passage is parallel to the Matt25:14-30 passage in His Olivet Discourse... and ditto what I said above, about that







I see that you have no qualms about changing out words to suit your own view of things (repeatedly).




--Zech14:4 - "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

believe in One Return of the Lord for He said He was Coming immediately after the tribulation in those days.

Jesus also said that the Resurrection occurs before the rapture and that this Resurrection does not take place until after the 5th Seal is completed.

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

If pre-trib were true you would not be hate me over it.

Is this a like a school quiz?
I'm familiar with the material but that doesn't mean we are going to agree.
I think they represent early believers. I don't think they are representative of all believers or the entire church.
Or the raptured church.

I'm not of the opinion that the term "First resurrection" indicates sequence. If that's what you are trying to teach me-
that it isn't a sequential term, I'm already of that opinion. It's those who don't face the second death. The "saved"
Those redeemed by Jesus, those not damned.

I like what you are saying, I do not agree fully, can I ask you in Matthew 24 the Olivet Discourse what was Jesus responding to? many do not know.

DavidTree These thing are not easy to understand.Yes some error have to do with sin in are life,and wrong motive,as if those where different things.But Kingdom of god is a hidden treasure not a cook book for say

Do you take it disagreeing as hating you?
LOL,
You are confirming my point about you, please continue.

Jesus was responding to a few different things in His Olivet Discourse OVERALL:

--Lk21:12-24a (with "WRATH" word) He's covering the events surrounding "70ad" (same for the singular verses: Mt24:2, Mk13:2, and Lk21:6--which parallel same Subject Jesus spoke of on the very day the "69 Weeks" were concluded, in His words of Lk19:41-44... as well as what He said in Matt22:7 "when the king heard thereof he was WROTH... sent forth his armies... burned up their city...");
This SECTION of Lk21:12-24 starts out with "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (meaning, "but BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth PANGS just listed/described in vv.8-11 parallel the SAME in Matt & Mk)... meaning, the events of "70ad" PRECEDE "the BoBPs" (and note, I do not say "immediately precede". NO.)


--In the other parts of His Olivet Discourse, He is answering their Q (basically found in v.3 of Mt24), which Q was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 ("the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" when the angels will "REAP" [aka the "WHEAT" harvest... when it is said to the angels/reapers "GATHER / COLLECT ye FIRST the TARES..."--this is the EXACT OPPOSITE "order/sequence" from that of "our Rapture" event, which is NOT BEING REFERENCED here, neither in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 NOR in His response Matt24-25;
...IOW, *we*/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest (harvested by means of a "tribulum"--harvesting implement)... but instead are of the EARLIER harvest (which is harvested by means of "tossing UP INTO THE AIR, and BLOWING away the chaff" [recall my mentioning there is more than one "firstfruit" and more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature--Lev23 has TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit," for example, and James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit"])].)





Please inform me if I've overlooked anything in your question, or if you would like for me to narrow a particular point of explanation for clarification, from the above.

Your not disagreeing with me - you are "adding to and taking away from the word of God."

Your hateful attack upon the Gospel of John forcing your words on John 14 and other such scriptures has turned you into hating your brother.