The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

Your way below me my friend. I would not take one silly thing you said about one thing that happened and claim this applies to everythign you believe.

You keep calling it tribulation. The context is GREAT TRIBULATION

By leaving one word out. You take context and throw it out the door.

I never equation the flood to just mere tribulation. That is false.

THERE WAS NO TRIBUATION BEFORE THE FLOOD

Show me in the word of God where the people were suffering tribulation before the ark was locked up.

Ponder this - Was it God's wrath or was it God's Judgment

i say this because
The things i am saying to you i say in Love and Truth for YOU to be Blessed and Sanctified by God's Words.

Our Lord prayed for us, you and me, this is His Prayer for us =

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The spirit of error using a lie, pre-trib rapture, has blinded you to the Truth in His Word.

Believe what God said about Noahs time - Read Genesis and study about what went on in Noah's time.

Find out why would God destroy the entire world??? The Truth has been hidden but enough retained in Scripture for you to know.

There was Great Tribulation in Noahs time which brought the Great Flood and wrath of God.
JESUS is the One who said there was great tribulation in Noahs time prior to the flood.

When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.d”

22Then He said to the disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is!’ or ‘Look, here He is!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day. 25But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day, let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve his possessions. Likewise, let no one in the field return for anything he has left behind. 32Remember Lot’s wife! 33Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”e

But in those days, after that tribulation Mark 13

Their are saints in the great tribulation appointed to God's wrath then?

jer 44: 7 “Now therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Why do you commit this great evil against yourselves, to cut off from you man and woman, child and infant, out of Judah, leaving none to remain, 8 in that you provoke Me to wrath with the works of your hands, burning incense to other gods in the land of Egypt where you have gone to dwell, that you may cut yourselves off and be a curse and a reproach among all the nations of the earth? 9 Have you forgotten the wickedness of your fathers, the wickedness of the kings of Judah, the wickedness of their wives, your own wickedness, and the wickedness of your wives, which they committed in the land of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 10 They have not been humbled,[c] to this day, nor have they feared; they have not walked in My law or in My statutes that I set before you and your fathers.’

1 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will set My face against you for catastrophe and for [d]cutting off all Judah. 12 And I will take the remnant of Judah who have set their faces to go into the land of Egypt to dwell there, and they shall all be consumed and fall in the land of Egypt. They shall be consumed by the sword and by famine. They shall die, from the least to the greatest, by the sword and by famine; and they shall be an oath, an astonishment, a curse and a reproach!


Gods wrath Imposed through famine and the sword. against the inhabitants of Judag in Egypt

another example, Concerning gods wrath on Judah

2 Kings
26 Nevertheless the Lord did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath, with which His anger was aroused against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked Him. 27 And the Lord said, “I will also remove Judah from My sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, ‘My name shall be there.’ ”

This was fulfilled when BABYLON took jerusalem and destroyed it as God had promised


You have not dis-proven pre-trib. You have not even helped me to see your view. Because alot of what you post is easy to destroy. Just like you claiming Gods punishment on Israel and Judah were punishment not wrath. Yet it took me how long to find just two passages to prove that wrong?

You need to be more open man.

Are there people who get saved in the tribulation period?

Noah was not delivered he was saved. Noah went through and God kept him safe. Rapture or harpazo means to snatch away, seize up or catch up. We get our English word harpoon from the root. As it shows a picture of the suddenness and is no choice involved.

Other places than I Thess this has been used in the New Testament is the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force. Phillip when he was taken up in the book of Acts as well as Paul when he relays in 2 Cor his story of going up into heaven. Rev 12 is another when it talks about the man child being caught up.

This is not what happened to Noah he was warned of God told to build a boat and God kept him inside of it so no trouble befell him. Noah was saved he was not delivered and 2 Peter points out the distinction between being saved and being delivered.

Matthew 24 is not the rapture it is the 2nd coming. Christ answers the questions they asked which part of is Matthew 23:37-39 which says, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

In Matthew 24 as well as Matthew 23 the word gatherth in the Greek is episunagó which means collect, gather together, assemble. If we look in the Greek Lexicon it defines it as a gather together where others are already assembled.

Which is what happens Christ returns with his saints and those who have survived the tribulation are also gathered and brought to the place. Zephaniah 3:16-20 says,

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

17The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

18I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.

19Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

20At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.

Ezekiel 34:11-24 says,
For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 13And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. 15I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. 16I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. 18Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 21Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 22Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

He gathers then separates Ezekiel 34 this is Matthew 24 and 25 expounded more by our Lord.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 says, Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Gather here is the Greek word episunagógé which the only other place it is used in the New Testament is Hebrews 10:25 which says, Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

This is a gathering in context of assembly by the church. Which is what 2Thess is relaying. This type of gathering is defined as a specific gathering to complete the purpose of the gathering. Which for us is to be forever with our Lord Jesus. As the bible states we will ever be with him where he is.

One brother already posted Isiah 27 so I won't post the whole thing but will point out just a couple key distinctions. In verse 1 it says, In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. We can find this in Rev 19. As well as in verse 12 it says, And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

The one by one I believe we can find in the language of one will be taken and the other one left. So Matthew 24 is the second coming and has nothing to do with the rapture.

According to Revelation 13:5-7 there are saints in the 42 month period of the great tribulation which will have war waged against them.

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So since you say the great tribulation is God's wrath, yet the Bible says we are not appointed the wrath, how are these saints facing God's wrath?

It is not. It is about God setting precedent or defining his nature. We know God has attributes or nature and it is impossible for him to go counter them. Such as lying it is impossible for him to lie. It is about the nature of our God. If we back up to Genesis 18 we find that when Abraham is visited he is told of the destruction that is gonna come upon Sodom. Lot being there Abraham pleads and we know how he goes from the amount of people to even lower. Anyway a attribute of God is described in Genesis 18:23-25 it says, And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

God does not punish the righteous as the wicked. We even see this more shored up in the New Testament when it is expounded that we are not appointed to wrath. It is a definitive attribute of God. So God takes two routes the bible has shown us. He either saves a person so that his wrath does not affect them in that they are protected by him during and through it. Such is the case of Noah, or God delivers a person so that they are removed from it and do not go through it such as the case of Lot.

Falling away is certainly not a good thing. It means Apostasy in Greek... If Christians do not even know what this term means, and in the context of the subject, its a bit foreboding given Paul is warning Satan comes first pretending to be God and Jesus.

falling away -
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.


Paul is going to great pains to explain there is no rapture in The Bible. Gods plans do not include a rapture. Because this is something man has added into The Bible. Ezekiel 18 in kjv will explain.

WE. who are we?

If the rapture happened Is it their fault they did not repent before the rapture?

I never saw God promise anyone in this time period they would not suffer from the wrath of God

Absolutely correct i made a error as i was typing two different subjects that was combined and i stopped immediately and deleted it.
On my PC i am not allowed to delete and it will automatically post - ??? why - i do not know but it has happened twice already.
So YES the Scripture is 100% correct that you posted.
Disregard that posting as it should not of been posted - we homeschool so a lot of things going on at the same time

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says that Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

In light of the scriptures, this leaves you with some options to consider:

1. The great tribulation is not God's wrath

Or

2. Christians are appointed to God's wrath

Which one works best for your pre-tribulation rapture theology?

this was never to be posted as i deleted it the moment i typed it - but it posted anyway, as i just found out now.

This worked out for GOOD however as it MAGNIFIES the point i made earlier which is this:
When we speak and our words leave our lips, they cannot be retrieved but by admission and correction - this applies to we/us/all.

So the mistake turned out to be a Blessing - by God's design no doubt and it proves my point exactly.

God calls the GREAT tribulation is wrath.

I would take God at his word for it

Considering that christians will be ALIVE at his comming. and enter the kingdom with him. I would say they are not spared Gods wrath. Sadly many will die from it.

So we have a third choice

CHURCH AGE saints are not appointed to Wrath

Those left being and given a second change and who are saved in the tribulation?

Sadly they will suffer Gods wrath.

"he who endures to the end will be saved...

If cannot see the great tribulation that the people were in during Noah's time - then you need to study about that time and what took place there - because God's wrath came down, not on a few like Sodom & Gommorah but on the Entire World.

This is an clear representation of the GreatTribulation which the Lord spoke of and said : "As in the days of Noah so will the return of the Son of man be" Matt 24

i believe the Lord's words and so should you

"As in the days of Noah so will the return of the Son of man be" Matt 24

If you cannot see the great tribulation that the people were in during Noah's time - then you need to study about that time and what took place there - because God's wrath came down, not on a few like Sodom & Gommorah but on the Entire World.

Noah's days are a clear representation of the Great Tribulation which the Lord spoke of and said in Matthew 24

Falsehood - God does NOT call the Great Tribulation His wrath - He never said that.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7

Yep he did because of their sin/

Not because they were in tribulation

You have not shown me one thing they suffered for back then.

Tribulation is used by God to turn people towards himself
Noah building the ark was not tribulation to the people

The bible does
the first 5 seals are part of great tribulation. Many die in this time.

I don't think anywhere it is explicitly stated the great tribulation is God's wrath. If there's a verse saying so then I'd love to see it. Over my past several posts I've tried to show how I believe the GT being God's wrath is theologically unsound.

I might add Revelation 12:12 pointing to the GT being the devil's wrath:

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.