REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 9, 2020
846
492
63
#41
My favorite verse in the bible. I'm sure some would say it's anti-semitic:
John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I don't think there's any two plans for salvation.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about "God's chosen people" like I'm supposed to bow down and kiss their boots.
I think the term judeo-christian is blasphemous. Judaism and Christianity are 100% opposite on the only issue that matters.
Jews whole identity is wrapped up in their rejection of Jesus.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,136
4,925
113
#42
Jews can certainly become Christian. And not all Jewish people are NonChristian to begin with.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28 KJV
there’s no difference the only thing that made Jews dofferent was the law of Moses was specific to them . Before israel children were chosen all people were condemned and then one people was chosen to sustain a relationship between God and man

when israel broke the covenant it didn’t make them dofferent from everyone else it made the. The same as everyone now jew and gentile alike must come to God through Jesus Christ. Male or female jew or gentile the only way to be saved is by the gospel .

They were chosen above everyone but failed as everyone else did so now all the world is guilty before God

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭

now that the jew has been included with the gentile all can be made one flock with one shepherd

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham’s children of promise are born through Christ only whether of Abraham’s bloodline or not makes no difference

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s how Abraham’s children are born heirs of the kingdom


“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jew and gentile is no longer significant as all fleshly and worldly things have become irrelevant ll that matters to God now is do we put our faith in Jesus Christ or do we reject his gospel ?

Israel is born by believing the gospel and getting baptized in his name for remission of sins that makes us born again children of Abraham’s promise people from all nations not only Israel are Abraham’s children

“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to look past the flesh because those thkngs are no longer relevant
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,482
1,410
113
#43
This is in Genesis 12. Here, God is speaking over Abram.

"I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


Then in verse 7 it reads “To your descendants I will give this land.”

This verse is referenced in Galatians 3

"Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ."

Galatians 3 ends with "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

There is no replacement. The Seed, who is Christ, was always to be the heir.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,136
4,925
113
#44
This is in Genesis 12. Here, God is speaking over Abram.

"I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


Then in verse 7 it reads “To your descendants I will give this land.”

This verse is referenced in Galatians 3

"Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ."

Galatians 3 ends with "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

There is no replacement. The Seed, who is Christ, was always to be the heir.
Paul seems to be referring here regarding the singular seed

“And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;

and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember that Abraham had two sons representing two covenants , brother one born first of the flesh who was later excluded from Abraham’s inheritance and Isaac the son of promise was the hier.

there are two covenants based on Abram and abraham one corresponding to ishmael who forms a single nation and later is excluded from Abraham’s household

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

…Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:22, 24-26, 30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

like ishmael the old covenant is cast out of the inheritance when the son of promise was born

Ishmael was replaced by Isaac shewing forth the Old Testament being fulfilled and replaced with the new tbe old having no inclusion in Abraham’s household being cast away
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,429
12,913
113
#45
There is no replacement. The Seed, who is Christ, was always to be the heir.
In the Abrahamic Covenant, there are several "seeds", Christ being one of them. So Christians should carefully study the Abrahamic Covenant, and its iterations to Isaac and Jacob.

1. Christ is the "seed" of Abraham in that Jesus of Nazareth descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David, and both Solomon and Nathan (through Joseph and Mary). And all nations are blessed through Christ.

2. All believers are the "seed" of Abraham during the Church Age, since all are justified by grace through faith, as was Abraham (Rom 4).

3. The twelve tribes of Israel after their redemption and restoration following the Second Coming of Christ are also the "seed" of Abraham and will be settled in Greater Israel as per the prophecy of Ezekiel (and other prophecies).

The key to understanding the last "seed" is found in Genesis 15, and several other passages. Here is what God told Abraham:

GENESIS 15: THE LAND OF GREATER ISRAEL IN PERPETUITY TO THE SEED OF ABRAHAM
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Since God has created the New Jerusalem for the Church, He has not promised the land between the Nile and the Euphrates to Christians. But He has plainly given it to the twelve tribes of Israel, who will live there eternally as redeemed and born again children of God.

Modern secular Zionist Israel has rejected Christ. But after His Second Coming there will be a large number of Jews who will be saved. And modern Israel will be thoroughly purged and cleansed.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,230
6,527
113
#46
My favorite verse in the bible. I'm sure some would say it's anti-semitic:
John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I don't think there's any two plans for salvation.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about "God's chosen people" like I'm supposed to bow down and kiss their boots.
I think the term judeo-christian is blasphemous. Judaism and Christianity are 100% opposite on the only issue that matters.
Jews whole identity is wrapped up in their rejection of Jesus.
Beware of those who say they are Jews but are not, they are a synagogue of Satan in truth.
You do not sound anti anything.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,482
1,410
113
#47
Paul seems to be referring here regarding the singular seed

“And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;

and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember that Abraham had two sons representing two covenants , brother one born first of the flesh who was later excluded from Abraham’s inheritance and Isaac the son of promise was the hier.

there are two covenants based on Abram and abraham one corresponding to ishmael who forms a single nation and later is excluded from Abraham’s household

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

…Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:22, 24-26, 30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

like ishmael the old covenant is cast out of the inheritance when the son of promise was born

Ishmael was replaced by Isaac shewing forth the Old Testament being fulfilled and replaced with the new tbe old having no inclusion in Abraham’s household being cast away
An notice that it is the natural descendant of Sarah, or the covenant at Sinai, that is the desolate woman. The law cannot produce sons, only bondage and slavery.

And then here:

"For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.
"


Here, 'desolate' refers to the absence of a promise. She, Hagar, who was never under the law, has many more children than the woman who had a husband, Sarah.

"But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now."

This refers to the persecution of believers by the Jews. The Jews leveraged their natural lineage as their advantage over those in Christ.

Yet...

Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

Those who still hold to the covenant of the law can never inherit the promises given to Abraham and his Seed.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,136
4,925
113
#48
An notice that it is the natural descendant of Sarah, or the covenant at Sinai, that is the desolate woman. The law cannot produce sons, only bondage and slavery.

And then here:

"For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.
"


Here, 'desolate' refers to the absence of a promise. She, Hagar, who was never under the law, has many more children than the woman who had a husband, Sarah.

"But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now."

This refers to the persecution of believers by the Jews. The Jews leveraged their natural lineage as their advantage over those in Christ.

Yet...

Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

Those who still hold to the covenant of the law can never inherit the promises given to Abraham and his Seed.
amen yes Jesus had addressed this with them also causing many to believe because they heard prophecy beforehand announcing he would come

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:

but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:21, 23-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Just as you are saying the old covenant produces slaves to the many letters and words engraved on stone and written outside of mans heart it cannot change us to see a rule and keep it , it can change us when we let Gods word in the gospel into our belief sin lurks within mans knowledge and understanding waiting to tempt us to obey sin

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭

our problem is that law of good and evil knowledge now living In us

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. …But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we are servants to a law of sin inside of us the presence always of both good and evil waiting to bear fruit either by serving sin or serving God

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭

see how obedience leads to righteousness ? And they aren’t the same thing ? We can be a sinner inwardly and obey a law from fear of death , but to be righteous we become like the word inwardly the word somewhat becomes new life in us

changing who we are by christs new and living word changing how we look at life in this world and how we see others and treat them . this is what makes us children conformed to the image of the son through discipleship to the son his ways and doctrine and pursuing him faith makes us Gods children of the new covenant before this even under law mankind had become servants to our own desires of the world and flesh the pleasures of the darkness in the world

we can serve sin and bear fruits of death

“For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:20-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or can come to god through Christ and the gospel and become his beloved disciple and have eternal life in the kingdom he preached forth the true good news of everlasting life with Jesus in his kingdom of glory after the temporal things crumble away and we see in truth.

by serving the law of Moses one is inherently a servant of sin and in constant conflict with thier own corrupt flesh trying to tame a condemned sinner who can’t repent.

but the gospel is like Jesus words of life and new birth are being spoken over the one who dares to believe it is true . It’s as if we are called into e cloud with him and he lays his hands on us and heals the thkngs he speaks to as if he is speaking forth light into the dark spaces in our hearts Creating a new and better heart and mind for us to sail our ship in the world by it’s better compass

he’s the creator and makes of Gods children in the gospel and so only this covenant can produce a man fulfilled in death by the law , and a man born again for a new life of eternal Glory with the father

“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:3-5‬ ‭KJV

he makes us new first through the gospel and has prepared a place for us to fulfill his everlasting promise to us

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a lot of reasons to find joy of we’re looking at the right word and right place

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses ot law is for the servants of sin and heirs of this fallen world but the gospel is about redeeming sinners and creating children made for eternal life in a new perfect world

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,482
1,410
113
#49
The law created a quid pro quo arrangement between the people and God: they get something for something. God kept His end of the deal but the people fell short. In such an arrangement the only thing left for people to give was their own lives. Yet, the law did not permit one to give up his life else the law could not preserve the people. In this type of situation, God, who kept his end of the deal, is owed a debt the people cannot repay. This is the hallmark of slavery and why the law could only produce slaves.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,136
4,925
113
#50
The law created a quid pro quo arrangement between the people and God: they get something for something. God kept His end of the deal but the people fell short. In such an arrangement the only thing left for people to give was their own lives. Yet, the law did not permit one to give up his life else the law could not preserve the people. In this type of situation, God, who kept his end of the deal, is owed a debt the people cannot repay. This is the hallmark of slavery and why the law could only produce slaves.
slaves that are condemned to death.

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭

but he took the sinners place in death

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and rose up having victory and holding the keys of death and hell, holding all
Power and authority in heaven and earth

“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sinners were bound to die in thier sins and end up in hell and judged by every deed , but now we have grace to acknowledge and repent before we die have our sins remitted in Christs atonement so we can die without sin being taken into account giving us life in death and taking us here

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

…And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Roar

Active member
Oct 14, 2021
165
46
28
#51
Romans 11

New King James Version



Israel’s Rejection Not Total
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
#52
Romans 11

New King James Version



Israel’s Rejection Not Total
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
Yes, some Israelites of Paul's day chose the true path and became Christian. Some of the elect (Christians) have Jewish ancestry.
 

Roar

Active member
Oct 14, 2021
165
46
28
#53
Yes, some Israelites of Paul's day chose the true path and became Christian. Some of the elect (Christians) have Jewish ancestry.

Messianic Judaism
1634767602179.png
Inside the small community of Christ-following Jews who've allied with American evangelicals to redeem Israel ... from its Jewishness.

There are an estimated 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide, according to various counts, they are a tiny minority in Israel -- just 10,000-20,000 people by some estimates.

Inspired by the charismatic Jesus Movement of the 1960s and 1970s, Messianic Judaism is a movement of who considered themselves completely Jewish and completely Christian. There were not simply Jewish converts to Christianity, but a group who embraced Jewish customs, rituals, and identity while believing that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. Rather than joining an established Christian denomination, Messianic Jews have formed their own congregations and organizations that are independent but associated with evangelical Protestantism in the United States.

Although Messianic Jews have faced criticism and skepticism from various groups, one third of American Jews in 2013 say that believing Jesus is the Messiah is compatible with Judaism.

Nevertheless, it was not until the 1960s-1970s that Messianic Judaism as a distinct movement began to gain traction. Arriving on the heels of the charismatic Jesus Movement of the time, the phrase Messianic Judaism came to mean believers who considered themselves completely Jewish and completely Christian. The word "messianic" (meshichyim) had a more positive connotation than the usual Jewish word to designate Christians (notzrim), which bore a sense of foreignness. A surge in Jewish interest in ethnic roots took place in the same decade, spurred on in part by the revitalized Jewish state in Israel achieving a remarkable victory in the Six-Day War of 1967. Louis Goldberg, a Jewish evangelical Christian who directed the Department of Jewish Studies at the Moody Bible Institute, was a noteworthy proponent of the importance of Israel, God’s covenant, and pride in Jewish heritage in light of the war. This growing interest in Jewish ethnic identity coincided with the charismatic movement of the 1970s (particularly with the missionary outreach of charismatic churches like Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel) and helped give rise to Messianic Judaism as a distinct form of evangelical Christianity. When Jewish evangelicals like Martin Chernoff -- who changed the name of the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America -- began assembling large followings, it was clear that Messianic Judaism was becoming a vigorous movement.

Though initially wary of the innovations in Messianic Judaism, evangelical Christians largely came to embrace the movement as authentically Christian. Louis Goldberg wrote an article in Christianity Today entitled "The Messianic Jew," in which he defended Messianic Judaism. Scholars at Moody Bible Institute, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and Fuller Theological Seminary expressed sympathy for the growing movement. More liberal Christians have been suspicious of Messianic Judaism (as too closely tied to conservative evangelical Christianity) and religious Jews perhaps even more so -- the Jews for Judaism organization was founded in 1985 in conscious resistance to the messianic organization Jews for Jesus.

Messianic Jews have struggled at times to maintain both their Christian and Jewish identities, but have managed to build and maintain their own subculture coterminous from evangelical Christianity. Furthermore, recent polls suggest that Messianic Judaism is finding more acceptance in traditionally Christian and Jewish circles. A 2013 Pew Research Center study suggested that more than one-third (34 percent) of Jews in the United States said that believing that Jesus is the Messiah is compatible with Judaism, even though the vast majority of those polled do not hold such a view.

Distinctive Beliefs

The key theological feature of Messianic Judaism is its profession of belief in Jesus Christ as the Jewish Messiah. Orthodox Trinitarian theology is broadly upheld, and Jesus is viewed as the Son of God who became incarnate in order to redeem humanity through his sacrificial atonement. This view is what sets it apart from other forms of Judaism, and leads many Jews and Christians to view the group as being Christian rather than Jewish -- despite Messianic Jews’ insistence on being both.

Within Christian theology, Messianic Judaism is distinct for a variety of beliefs. Of particular importance is the movement’s widespread renunciation of Replacement Theology -- or supercessionism -- that holds that Christianity superseded and obviated Judaism. Messianic Jews uphold the Old Testament as binding, as it was not discarded by Yeshua but rather affirmed. As such, some Messianic Jews adhere to the dietary restrictions and sabbatical laws of Judaism. However, Mosaic Law is not considered necessary for salvation, as that is only achieved through Christ’s atonement. In addition, the New Testament is upheld as divinely inspired as well. Where Messianic Judaism is most similar to evangelical Christianity is in its premillennial eschatology. Prevalent in conservative evangelicalism, premillennial views of the "End Times" often orient around the historical importance of Israel and God’s continued covenant with the Jewish People. Central to this construction of premillennialism is a belief in Christ’s Second Coming, the millennial reign, and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple -- a project that evangelical Christians, Messianic Jews, and even Orthodox Jews have sometimes collaborated on, despite their theological differences.

Notable People and Organizations

Joseph Rabinowitz is an early example of a Jewish Christian who sought to maintain his Jewish identity, but he was not technically a Messianic Jew. In the era of the 1960s and 1970s, Jewish Christians like Martin Chernoff and Louis Goldberg are important for not only leading Messianic organizations, but also formulating a distinctive theology. When Chernoff presided over the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (1971-1975), its self-understanding shifted toward Messianic Judaism rather than Hebrew Christianity, a development that helps frame the broader trajectory of the relationship of its believers to both Christianity and Judaism. Lastly, the organization Jews for Jesus had a large impact on Messianic Judaism through its evangelical theology and missionary focus. The rival organization Jews for Judaism was founded by Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz in 1985 to counter Jews for Jesus’s influence on Judaism.
 

Roar

Active member
Oct 14, 2021
165
46
28
#54
All the Apostles and original Church in Jerusalem were Messianic Jews. :)
 

Roar

Active member
Oct 14, 2021
165
46
28
#55
Romans 11
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition


11 I ask then: Has God totally rejected and disowned His people? Of course not! Why, I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin!
2 No, God has not rejected and disowned His people [whose destiny] He had marked out and appointed and foreknown from the beginning. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets; they have demolished Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.
4 But what is God’s reply to him? I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal!
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God’s unmerited favor and graciousness).
6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless].
7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).
8 As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day.
9 And David says, Let their table (their feasting, banqueting) become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a [a]just retribution [[b]rebounding like a boomerang upon them];
10 Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.
11 So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous.
12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel’s] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!
13 But now I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I lay great stress on my ministry and magnify my office,
14 In the hope of making my fellow Jews jealous [in order to stir them up to imitate, copy, and appropriate], and thus managing to save some of them.
15 For if their rejection and exclusion from the benefits of salvation were [overruled] for the reconciliation of a world to God, what will their acceptance and admission mean? [It will be nothing short of] life from the dead!
16 Now if the first handful of dough offered as the firstfruits [Abraham and the patriarchs] is consecrated (holy), so is the whole mass [the nation of Israel]; and if the root [Abraham] is consecrated (holy), so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, while you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them to share the richness [of the root and sap] of the olive tree,
18 Do not boast over the branches and pride yourself at their expense. If you do boast and feel superior, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root [that supports] you.
19 You will say then, Branches were broken (pruned) off so that I might be grafted in!
20 That is true. But they were broken (pruned) off because of their unbelief (their lack of real faith), and you are established through faith [because you do believe]. So do not become proud and conceited, but rather stand in awe and be reverently afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches [because of unbelief], neither will He spare you [if you are guilty of the same offense].
22 Then note and appreciate the gracious kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s gracious kindness to you—provided you continue in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (pruned away).
23 And even those others [the fallen branches, Jews], if they do not persist in [clinging to] their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree.
25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the [c]full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,
26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.
28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience,
31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you—through you as messengers of the Gospel to them].
32 For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable (inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untraceable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)!
34 For who has known the mind of the Lord and who has understood His thoughts, or who has [ever] been His counselor?
35 Or who has first given God anything that he might be paid back or that he could claim a recompense?
36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. [For all things originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him.] To Him be glory forever! Amen (so be it).
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
#56
Yes, a Christian is permitted to observe the laws of Moses, but it is not a requirement. ("Circumcised or noncircumcized, it matters not") and other Christians are not to be judged by differences in these traditions. We honour father and mother by carrying forward traditions but ultimately those in Christ are together without distinction. "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, for all are one in Christ". One may observe any number of traditions so long as they don't conflict with the law of Christ. Where traditions do conflict, they are to be discarded. That said, one who is Christian but Jewish through blood might not choose to describe themselves as anything other than simply "Christian", and that choice in description might be passed on for generations. This does not remove the fact that they are physical descendants of Israel. There is a lot of hate and intolerance toward Christians of Jewish descent from NonChristian Jews. A Jewish Christian's forefathers were not apostates of Judaism, Christ fulfils the law.
 

Roar

Active member
Oct 14, 2021
165
46
28
#57
Yes, a Christian is permitted to observe the laws of Moses, but it is not a requirement. ("Circumcised or noncircumcized, it matters not") and other Christians are not to be judged by differences in these traditions. We honour father and mother by carrying forward traditions but ultimately those in Christ are together without distinction. "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, for all are one in Christ". One may observe any number of traditions so long as they don't conflict with the law of Christ. Where traditions do conflict, they are to be discarded. That said, one who is Christian but Jewish through blood might not choose to describe themselves as anything other than simply "Christian", and that choice in description might be passed on for generations. This does not remove the fact that they are physical descendants of Israel. There is a lot of hate and intolerance toward Christians of Jewish descent from NonChristian Jews. A Jewish Christian's forefathers were not apostates of Judaism, Christ fulfils the law.

Granted, The apostles when they sent to Jewish Temple observed the Jewish traditions but were not bound by them as related in the New Testament. Messianic Jews choose to honor their Jewish traditions but non-Jews are not bound or required to do so. One must remember it was the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Empire that by decree and Roman Law change worship frpm Saturday to Sunday not the Apostiles of the Early Church! One should dceascribe themserves as followers of Christ. His name in Hebrew is Yeshua after all. And the the belief during the time of the Aposteles was known as ":the Way" so modern belidving Jews calling themselves Messkanic Jews in order to maintain their Jewish idenity must be understood due to the Christian Persecution of Jews over the Centuries which one can read about by doing any honest search on the internet. Hitler could not have done what he did without the Pope's tacit accent in Rome.
 

Roar

Active member
Oct 14, 2021
165
46
28
#58
AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAUFORMER GERMAN NAZI
CONCENTRATION AND EXTERMINATION CAMP
http://auschwitz.org/en/history/the-ss-garrison/

Religious denomination

The religious affiliation of 556 garrison members is known; Catholics accounted for the highest number, followed by Lutherans. Atheists (the Gottgläubig category) made up the third largest group. Among the SS men who belonged to the NSDAP, the Nazi party, the greatest number were Lutherans.
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
#59
Granted, The apostles when they sent to Jewish Temple observed the Jewish traditions but were not bound by them as related in the New Testament. Messianic Jews choose to honor their Jewish traditions but non-Jews are not bound or required to do so. One must remember it was the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Empire that by decree and Roman Law change worship frpm Saturday to Sunday not the Apostiles of the Early Church! One should dceascribe themserves as followers of Christ. His name in Hebrew is Yeshua after all. And the the belief during the time of the Aposteles was known as ":the Way" so modern belidving Jews calling themselves Messkanic Jews in order to maintain their Jewish idenity must be understood due to the Christian Persecution of Jews over the Centuries which one can read about by doing any honest search on the internet. Hitler could not have done what he did without the Pope's tacit accent in Rome.
An especially tragically overlooked part of history is the persecution of Christians by Jews. Paul in the bible is an example of a Jew that viciously prosecuted Christians, to the point God had to come down to him to intercede. Paul became a professing Jewish Christian after this revelation and sought forgiveness for his sins. Paul was functionally a kinslayer before he found Christ. And after he found Christ had to evade other would-be kinslayers.

Many parts of modern history including the Holodomor are lesser known atrocities against Christian men, women, and children that took the lives of 10s of millions. The bible speaks of Christians being prosecuted and killed for their faith. Whenever we see a rise in antiChristian rhetoric, we should be very aware of what can come of that.
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
#60
AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAUFORMER GERMAN NAZI
CONCENTRATION AND EXTERMINATION CAMP
http://auschwitz.org/en/history/the-ss-garrison/

Religious denomination

The religious affiliation of 556 garrison members is known; Catholics accounted for the highest number, followed by Lutherans. Atheists (the Gottgläubig category) made up the third largest group. Among the SS men who belonged to the NSDAP, the Nazi party, the greatest number were Lutherans.
This appears to be off-topic and only posted for the purpose of spreading antiChristian ideation. Should we judge whole groups by the actions of the few? There were Lutherans and Catholics on both sides of the war.

Don't spread hate. Fight evil with good.