What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself..."

This is a reference to all men who are dead in their sins. All of us, everyone who is in Christ, hear the voice of Christ and live.

"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

This is a reference to the place in Hell for the unrighteous. People who die outside of Christ (where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth) will be kept in Hell. Then, at the end of age, Hell (with everyone held by that spirit) will be cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed.

The Rich Man in Hell
"In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"

Note: he is in torment and in agony in the fire. Abraham rejects his request and says "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’"

This is why there is weeping and agony for those who are shut out e.g. for those who do not accept Christ on this side of the first death: they can see the reality they rejected. The water is the Word and now, after their first death, they are kept in a place that is utterly dry and untouched by the word. Even in their lost existence on earth they benefited from the grace of God (Who causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust) but they counted it as luck, or hard work, or man's will, or entitlement, or science, etc. Seeing this great chasm, they wail and cry out. And this continues until they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the righteous punishment for those who turned their backs on the Living God and remained enemies of the gospel.

Are you an annihilationist? Yes or no will do. I don't like sneaking around when it comes to doctrine.

So you believe the "day" in Zechariah 14 is a 24-hour calendar day?

The use of "day" (Hebrew = יוֹם = yom) in Gen 1:5 uses "day" in the sense of the daytime (when it is light outside = a 12-hour period of time)...one of the 9 meanings of yom in the OT. Here the day + the night = 24 hours. So the "day" in Genesis cannot mean 24-hours. This should shake you from your rigid understanding of what a yom is (and can be).

He wasn't ambiguous. He meant a period of time, which is one of the correct possible usages of the word (you can verify this with any lexicon). "Day" = period of time/season in many places in the Hebrew Scriptures. I gave Zechariah 14 as an example, in which Summer and Winter exist within the "day" he describes.


Agreed. 2 Pet 3:8 tells us what God's perception of time is like. A day to Him is"like" (roughly) a thousand years.

There is no sunlight light mentioned anywhere in Genesis 2.
Go study what "yom" means in Hebrew. The English translation "day" can be misleading when it is not referring to a calendar day.

Simplified...yom can mean:

24-period- unit of time from sunset until the next sunset; including evening and morning: Ge 1:5, 8, 13–14, 19, 23, 31; 2:2–4, 17; 3:5; 4:14; 5:1–2; 6:5; 7:4, 10–11, 13, 17, 24; 8:3, 6, 10, 12; 15:18; 17:12, 23, 26; 21:4, 8, 26, 34; 22:4, 14; 24:12, 42; 25:31, 33; 26:32; 27:2, 45; 29:20; 30:32, 35–36; 31:22–23, 43, 48; 33:13, 16; 34:25; 35:3; 37:34; 39:10–11; 40:7, 12–13, 18–20; 41:1, 9; 42:13, 17–18, 32; 47:23; 48:20; 50:3, 10; Ex 2:18; 3:18; 5:3, 6, 13–14, 19; 7:25; 8:18 …
period of time- whether specified or unspecified: Ge 3:14, 17; 4:3; 5:4–5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 27, 31; 6:3–4; 8:22; 9:29; 10:25; 11:32; 14:1; 19:37–38; 24:55; 25:7, 24; 26:1, 8, 15, 18, 33; 27:41, 44; 29:21; 30:14; 32:33; 35:20, 28–29; 38:12; 40:4; 43:9; 44:32; 47:8–9, 26, 28–29; 48:15; 49:1; 50:3–4, 20; Ex 2:11, 23; 6:28; 13:10; 20:12; 23:26; Le 25:8, 29, 50; 26:34–35; Nu 6:4–6, 8, 12–13; 9:18, 20, 22; 13:20; 24:14; Dt 1:39; 2:14; 3:14; 4:9–10, 30, 32, 40 …
event day- day assigned to a particular purpose or observance: Ge 30:33; Le 5:24; 6:13; 7:15–16, 35–36, 38; 14:2; 16:30; 23:27–30; 24:8; 25:9; Dt 5:12, 15; 21:16; 32:35; Jdg 4:14; 1 Sa 1:4; 26:10; Is 30:25; Je 12:3; 17:16–18, 21–22, 24, 27; 18:17; 27:22; 36:6; 46:10, 21; 47:4; 50:27, 31; 51:2; Eze 7:7, 10, 12, 19; 13:5; 21:30, 34; 22:4, 24; 26:18; 27:27; 28:13; 29:21; 30:2–3, 9; 32:10; 39:13; 46:4, 6, 12; Ho 2:2; 5:9; 9:5; 10:14; Joe 1:15; 2:1, 11; 3:4; 4:14; Am 3:14; 5:18, 20; Ob 15; Hab 3:16; Zep 1:7–8, 14–16, 18 …
daylight- 12-hour period within a calendar day- the time after sunrise and before sunset while it is light outside: Ge 1:5, 14, 16, 18; 3:8; 7:4, 12; 8:22; 18:1; 29:7; 31:39–40; Ex 2:13; 10:13; 24:18; 34:28; Nu 11:32; Dt 9:9, 11, 18, 25; 10:10; 1 Sa 19:24; 28:20; 30:12; 1 Ki 8:29; Is 28:19; 38:12; 62:6; Je 6:4; 33:20; 36:30; Eze 1:28; 30:18; Ho 4:5; Am 5:8; 8:9; Jon 2:1; Zec 14:7; Ps 19:3; 74:16; 88:2; 136:8; 139:12; Job 2:13; 3:3; 17:12; Ec 2:23; 8:16; Es 4:16
calendar day - a day reckoned from sunset to sunset: Ge 7:11; 8:4, 14; 29:14; Ex 12:6, 14, 18; 13:4, 8; 16:1; 40:2; Le 23:6, 34, 39, 41; Nu 9:3, 5, 11; 28:16–17; 29:12; 33:3; Jos 5:10; 1 Ki 12:32–33; Eze 24:2; 45:21, 25; Hag 1:1, 15; 2:18; Zec 1:7; Mal 3:4; Es 9:15
year- a period of 12 lunar months: Jdg 11:40; 1 Sa 1:3, 20–21; 2:19; 20:6; 27:7; 2 Sa 14:26; 2 Ch 21:19
age - how long something has existed or how long someone has lived understood in terms of days: Ge 18:11; 24:1; Jos 13:1; 23:1–2; 1 Ki 1:1; Ps 34:13; Job 30:1; 32:4, 6–7; 42:17
the typical time people awake- the recurring hours when a person is not sleeping; especially those when you are working: 1 Ki 19:8; Ru 2:19


To ignore the spectrum of common meanings, insisting on a specific meaning that is not contextually supported, then lying about what the context says (sunlight in Genesis 2) to support your position in a controversial manner is hermeneutically irrisponsable.

What just happened?

??????
Did something happen?

To clarify my post (#1003), Genesis 1:5 is not the "immediate context" of Genesis 2:17, as @Runningman claims. Genesis 1 deals primarily with the cosmos, while Genesis 2 deals primarily with Eden.

I don't understand.
Are you referring to my post (#1003)?

I just read some false {annihilation} doctrine, And Thanked And Praised God For HIS Sound {RIGHTEOUS Judgment} Doctrine!

What happened? A: His Amazing GRACE Continues, But who knows for how long?

Sorry for the late reply! Been a bit involved in the past few days. Seems I'm a few dozen pages behind.

The short answer is: "a really LONG time". As TDW posted in one of his, "ages upon ages" is the original meaning, which we've translated into English as forever and ever...but they still perish.


Psalm 82 [brackets mine]
1 {A Psalm of Asaph.} God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. [the angels; principalities & powers]

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. [angels; spirit beings created by Him]

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.


^The above passage contrasts the angels with men, introducing the notion of them dying "like men" which means death can't merely be shedding the body into a spirit form (since angels are already spirits). Dying must mean to completely perish; to cease to exist.

But in my last post, I was comparing lifespans and reasoning through probable differences in durability.

My argument was that satan and the fallen angels are "spirits" not "souls" and that - as higher beings that live a LONG time - it will take a relatively longer time for them to be consumed compared to the brief flicker that is man's life. The lake of fire was prepared for satan and his angels...not for man (as the Almighty wishes that none should perish but come to a love of the truth - 2 Peter 3:9)

Also, if we reason that the punishment must fit the crime, as the Almighty HATES unjust balances (Proverbs 11:1), then is it just for souls seduced by satan to be consumed in the fire for as long as satan and his spirits, even if one were to concede - for the sake of argument - that satan and his angels are tormented "forever"? I must again answer "no".

Finally, below are random passages confirming that it's the one who causes another to sin that is held at a greater level of guilt. So imagine how great the guilt is upon the old serpent versus those people he's fooled.


John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Luke 17:1-2
jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

Matthew 18:7
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!


The Almighty is Just. Eternal torment for all doesn't fit His type of justice....maybe ours...but not His.

I don't know why you think it's so funny. It's actually pretty rude and putting down of people to laugh at their ideas especially one that is not that strange.
In your eyes what happens is a blotting out / non-existence / no-consciousness / GONE. Can you fathom that? I don't think you can which actually speaks to the argument of eternal punishment. Then again as a conscious creature it's hard to take one's mind to that place just because one does not know it.
(again I'm on the opposite POV as you but I was taught that POV and I am most definitely open to being wrong. What this thread has shown me is that I don't know my Bible anywhere near as much as I thought I did)

To put it crudely it's like someone in the Sahara missing ice cream.

That is not doctrinal support. That is, in my mind, logic. It's very much light obliterating darkness in a room. There is no stench of darkness, it's just gone and will be gone as long as there is light.

I gave you Genesis 1:5, but I guess you missed the part that defines what a complete day/night cycle: "And the evening and the morning were the first day"

Evening and morning = a day (24 hours)

This can be confusing when the same words hold more than one meaning and are used differently within the same sentence.

Closely note what I said in post #979:

"Adam would have understood day as the time during each 24 hour period with sunlight..."

"...where the word "day" is used, it is referencing the time in a 24 hour period that contains sunlight..."

"When God told Adam, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" Adam would have understood that as the time with sunlight."

You'll find I don't mince words very often.

In Genesis 1:5, the plain text of the verse says that the "day" (H3117. yom) is the period of a 24 hour cycle that contains light. A day is also defined as an evening and a morning.

Genesis 1:5
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The context is about how Day and Night relate to Earth, not the cosmos.

In Genesis 2:17, the same Hebrew word that is used for Day (H3117. yom) in Genesis 1:15 is present:

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That's a moot point. The sunlight is already established to have been present in the Garden of Eden in Chapter 1.


Thanks I did take some time to study what yom means in Hebrew and what I see is that it validates what I have been trying to show you all along: That the context of Genesis 1 and 2 uses the word Yom to define a ~12 hour period of the day that contains light and a day can also be a ~24 hour period containing "the evening and the morning." (Genesis 1:5)

Again, human Adam would have understood a day to be the time on Earth that is either a 12 hour period with sunlight or a 24 hour period with the "evening and the morning."

What's most relevant is that Adam died spiritually the very calendar day he ate the forbidden fruit and began a process of physical death once his Tree of Life access was revoked.

Why this is important is because you insisted in post #720 that Romans 5:17 is talking about physical death. After all this, let's take another look at the verse again:

Romans 5:17
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

To me, this completely alters the way Romans 5 should be interpreted and remains consistent with the sola scriptura doctrine of annihilation.

The creation of the cosmos is nothing more than a footnote in Genesis 1 and 2. The main focus is the creation of Earth.

Well....looks like we are left with complete radio silence, or incoherent blubbering and vexatious red ex's (weeping and gnashing of teeth IMO) from the annihilationists.

I'm calling that a victory for them that hold the biblically correct righteous judgment doctrine.
But we all know it just HAD to turn our this way........

Gehenna was the place refuse was thrown to be destroyed. This is saying don't fear the natural death fear the FINAL DEATH.

Hell, Sheol, Gehenna all mean the same thing--the GRAVE.

Hell cannot be the place of 'Eternal Conscious Torment' since it is thrown into the Lake of Fire which is 'The Second Death'.
Also the bible says Jesus went there when he died--he was in the grave three days and didn't go anywhere else, so we know hell is the GRAVE.

Matthew says the exact same thing Luke says but adds SOUL:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."-- Matthew 10:28

I'd NEVER put my old pal @cv5 on ignore!

----

Do you wanna discuss something ol'buddy ol'pal?

"Ah...No...."

A word to you lady. Take heed....

Isa 30:9-10
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Lady.....your false doctrine has been wrecked. Its over.

Here are some interesting Old Testament allusions.....

Isa 30:30-33
And the LORD will cause His majestic voice to be heard
and His mighty arm to be revealed,
striking in angry wrath with a flame of consuming fire,
and with cloudburst, storm, and hailstones.
For Assyria will be shattered at the voice of the LORD;
He will strike them with His scepter.
And with every stroke of the rod of punishment
that the LORD brings down on them,
the tambourines and lyres will sound
as He battles with weapons brandished.
For Topheth has long been prepared;
it has been made ready for the king.
Its funeral pyre is deep and wide,
with plenty of fire and wood.
The breath of the LORD, like a torrent of burning sulfur,
sets it ablaze.

Isa 14:9-11
Sheol beneath is eager
to meet you upon your arrival.
It stirs the spirits of the dead to greet you—
all the rulers of the earth.
It makes all the kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
They will all respond to you, saying,
“You too have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us!”
Your pomp has been brought down to Sheol,
along with the music of your harps.
Maggots are your bed
and worms your blanket.