What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

I just re-read your whole comment. I don't see an explanation of "death reigned from Adam until Moses".
Please tell me your explanation of what "death reigned from Adam until Moses" means. If you don't know, then just tell me, and I will tell you what it means.
Ok. Your premise is = "the figure of Christ to come is a comparative parallel figure" ,
and you're using that premise to conclude that Moses is the figure (because Moses is comparable to Christ).

I already pointed out...
...that vs 15 shows the foreshadowing to be contrastive: "But the gift is not like the trespass". = The figure is contrastive
and in vs 16: "The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned". = The figure is contrastive
and in vs 17: the one brought death...Christ brought the gift of righteousness. = The figure is contrastive
and in vs 18: "one man was disobedient, making many sinners...Christ was obedient, making many righteous". = The figure is contrastive

These verses (15-18) explain the foreshadowing...It tells us that the figure (person) is:

1. "[whose] transgression was not like Christ's gift" =Adam or Moses?
2. "was disobedient" = Adam or Moses?
3. "brought death to all" = Adam or Moses?

The English syntax, the Greek parsing, and the surrounding verses (context) are the evidence that Adam is the figure.
That is how contextual exegesis is done.





This will probably be my last response if you still haven't apprehended this.
Nothing personal, I just have homework to do.

Blessings to you and your studies. I hope you develop a hermeneutic that is Biblically consistent and sound so that you do not deceive yourself and others but honor the truth of our King, Who alone sees the hearts of all men.

Amen

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

A lot of negative things will not exist in the future.

Wiping tears away means no more tears. Tears will not exist.
There shall be no more death. Death will not exist.
There shall be no more sorrow. Sorrow will not exist.
There shall be no more crying. Crying will not exist.
There shall be no more pain. Pain will not exist.

Tears, death, sorrow, crying and pain will be Annihilated and shall never again exist. Is it such a stretch that the unsaved wicked people will also be Annihilated? Scripture over and over promises that they shall be Annihilated. Believe what scripture says and reject false doctrines that teach otherwise.

John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .

Being destroyed means they are Annihilated.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Perishing and being burned and being consumed into smoke means they are Annihilated.

The way i understand it is that there will be two resurrections.
When Jesus comes the saved will rise to be with Him. those in the graves and those alive will meet Him in the air. First resurrection.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
After the 1000 years as stated in Rev.. the second resurrection will happen and these people will experience the second death.
All that have ever lived will be alive at this moment before the second death when sin is destroyed forever.

“The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible because the Bible says God “alone has immortality” (1 Timothy 6:16). When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and “live forever” (Genesis 3:22–24). The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.

“I saw a new heaven and a new earth. ... And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away” (Revelation 21:1, 4).

I hope that for you as well.

The Greek word Gehenna (also spelled Geenna) occurs 12 times in the
New Testament, and is always translated "hell" in the King James Version.
The word is used only one time in the New Testament outside the first three
Gospels, in James 3:6 where it is used metaphorically about the harm caused
by a vile human tongue. Gehenna was a known place on the south side of
Jerusalem familiar to all who heard Jesus speak. The word Gehenna is the
Greek spelling of the Hebrew words ge hinnom, meaning "valley of Hinnom."
A quick search of a concordance for the word Hinnom will find the 11 verses
referring to this location in the Old Testament. From these verses anyone can
readily see the evils that happened in this valley, and understand how it became
thought of as a horrible place by Jews. The valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem,
was the place in ancient times where idolatrous Israelites burned their children
alive as sacrifices to Molech and Baal. (Molech is sometimes spelled Moloch).
It was also referred to as Tophet, which means a place of fire. Gehenna is never
used in the Old Testament to mean anything other than the place outside
Jerusalem with which every Jew was familiar. source


But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary
to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction!

Paul is more than capable of saying exactly what he means. On the other hand, Jesus spoke in parables. Gehenna was a metaphor for the fiery judgement of God on the wickedness of the earth. Paul's use of the words apollumi (meaning perish; utter destruction); olethros (ruin, destruction, death); and apoleia (a presumed derivative of apollumi), mean utter destruction. When Jesus used the word Gehenna, as for the Hebrew prophets and the Jewish pseudepigraphal writers before him, it meant fiery destruction, God's incinerator, where all the rubbish, all that opposed the good purposes of God, would be burned up. What is odd is that many and probably most if not all of the verses you posted support the very view you oppose.


Some examples:

NET Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish (ἀπόλλυμι)
apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

NET 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those
who are perishing (ἀπόλλυμι), but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

NET 1 Thessalonians 5:3 Now when they are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction
(ὄλεθρος) comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will surely not escape.

NET 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction
(ὄλεθρος), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength.

NET 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with every kind of evil deception directed against those who are
perishing (ἀπόλλυμι), because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved.

NET 1 Timothy 6:9 Those who long to be rich, however, stumble into temptation and a trap and
many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin (ἀπόλλυμι) and destruction (ἀπώλεια).

Terminal destruction, exactly. Not eternal conscious torment. Gehenna was a place that God was
disgusted with due to its use and God was also disgusted with His people for doing such an abomination.

Hey brother. I just want to add something for you. Whatever verse we state in our narration, Is it agree with character and nature of God? If it is not agree with Gods character, than I will doubt the narration even though it is from the scripture. If it is agree with Gods nature that God is so merciful and full of love for all people that he will punish them eternally, than I will agree with you. Will you please connect the eternal punishment with Gods love? I am open for that. Thank you. God loves you. (I try to think the scripture with Gods heart and nature, without Gods nature and heart Bible can not be understood well I think.). I need improvement, I can be wrong, Please help me.

The punishment of the wicked will be fair and just. God will make sure of it. Eternal burning and pain is not a fair punishment for one lifetime of sin. But to destroy all sin and sinners is fair.
God is Love.

I have refuted it. The foundation for eternal conscious torment (ECT) is too weak or none of us would be here debating it. For a doctrine held so firmly by many here in this thread, there just aren't any verses that plainly say all non-Christians go to hell to suffer ECT. Everyone keeps quoting the same tired verses about "smoke rising forever" or "eternal fire" or "worms that will not die" yet do not state the fate of the lost is ECT.

I told someone this earlier, but the difference between an interpretation and scripture is what we want to see. If we let the plain words of the Bible speak for themselves, you'll find the ECT is not actually in the Bible. I think you're a smart guy and I am sure you can see that.


"Death reigned from Adam until Moses" I believe means that before Moses there was no such thing as grace/righteousness and during the law of Moses there was no grace/righteousness either. In other words, the law is powerless to save anyone, but we receive grace and righteousness because of Christ. We have a much greater advantage than they did.

Romans 5:14
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:21
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Adam was a perfect man at first: 100% sinless. Did you consider that? Adam sinned and, through his sin, death came to mankind.

Jesus is perfect. Never sinned and, through his righteousness, has given the gift of grace to many.

Adam and Jesus are obviously far from identical, but I believe this is what the answer to your question is.

Do you have a different understanding?

Annihilation is not a tradition, but rather sola scriptura. We've repeatedly showed a myriad of verses that describes the fate of unbelievers as destroyed/perished/put to death. Do you agree that unbelievers are destroyed/perished/put to death? The Bible says this plainly.


I've already shown that Revelation 20:10 is not literal.

For example, the devil cannot be "tormented day and night forever and ever" if he's destroyed. Let me remind you of Hebrews 2:14

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And the beast and false prophet cannot be "tormented day and night forever and ever" if they are among those described in Revelation 21:8 who are put to death.

Revelation 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Nevermind that the book of Revelation, in my opinion, uses more symbolism than any other book in the Bible. Where they are apparent contradictions, such as someone being tormented forever while also destroyed and/or put to death, we have no other choice but to defer to a non-literal interpretation over the plain text. This is just good hermeneutics.

In order to validate your claims, you just need to prove that death is not death, destroyed is not destroyed, and why forever means forever when there are examples of forever not meaning forever elsewhere in the Bible.

Let's look at more where the words forever are used and are not literal:

This servant did not serve his master forever because mortal men do not liver forever.
Exodus 21:6
6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

This statute is no longer required despite the verse says it will be a statute forever.
Exodus 28:43
43And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

There are no places in the present day with streams of pitch, brimstone dust, land of burning pitch, with smoke that rises forever. This is not literal.
Isaiah 34:8-10
8For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

With all that being said, can you prove forever literally means forever? How do you do that?

The character and nature of God is best described by Jesus Himself. His Words His examples His walk, His prophecies.

And it is Jesus Himself who has discussed, dialogued and defined more than anyone else Gehenna fire, eternal torment and punishment and the fate of unredeemed men and unredeemable angels.

It's all there, it is exacting and unequivocal, and there are a plethora of examples. Gehenna fire is not some peripheral minor doctrine that people can so easily sideline. On the contrary it is the flipside of eternal glorification.

I really don't know what all this debate is about. As far as I can tell it is outright denial and rebellion, in the guise of vain human philosophy

Once again, you're nothing like Jesus of Nazareth or John the Baptist. They didn't expect the worst of people nor did they teach the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment that you are promoting in this thread.

This is how I feel about this whole debate:

1 Peter 3:15-17
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Remember... I had pointed out that the word "destroyed [G2673]" in Heb2:14 means "to render inoperative, annul, render idle (useless), to make of no effect" etc...

It does not mean "annihilate" just because you imagine it means that.



"death" (and "hell/hades") will have just "DELIVERED UP the DEAD" (v.13) and then "death and hell/hades" were "cast into the lake of fire" (this is "death" being "rendered inoperative, annulled, rendered idle (useless), and made of no effect" (G2673 [as shown above ^ ]; according to 1Cor15:24,26)... again, not meaning "annihilated" but "rendered inoperative, rendered idle (useless)..."



The verses under discussion are NOT "apparent contradictions"... they do NOT "contradict" each other AT ALL.

Only in your own mind, where you've changed the definition of "G2673"!!

(used in Heb2:14 [re: "the devil / satan"] and in 1Cor15:24,26 [re: "death"] and in 2Th2:8 [re: "the man of sin" / antichrist / "beast (individual person aspect)" at the point in time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, per Rev19:20 and 2Th2:8b's "MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia" [i.e. Second Coming to the earth], 1000 yrs prior to the "GWTj" point in the chronology)



"the second death" is not defined as "being put to death," for "death" itself at that point will have been "rendered inoperative, annulled, rendered idle (useless) [G2673]"... I believe this is exactly why v.14 is worded exactly how it is worded: "And death and Hades [/hell] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." This is NOT saying "put to death" ("death" will have been "rendered inoperative [G2673]" at the point when it has been "cast into the lake of fire," being the fulfillment of 1Cor15:24,26).

This means that it (v.14) is IN PERFECT AGREEMENT with v.10, which had stated, "and THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED day and night UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" (which phrase in ALL 21 occurrences [see Post #230!] ALWAYS *means* forever / endlessness!)

Right. Every passage and verse regarding the lake of fire, Gehenna, eternal punishment etc are all of them perfectly congruent, concordant, and correspondingly affirmative.

Really? Well....here is the real John the Baptist. His WORDS differ greatly from your FEELINGS/OPINION.

Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (eternal Gehenna fire)

Mat 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (eternal Gehenna fire)

Luk 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luk 3:9
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (eternal Gehenna fire)

Luk 3:17
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. (eternal Gehenna fire)

Indeed, todays Laodicean liberal intellectually proud philosophizing so-called Churches are in the habit of denying the Words of Jesus, His call to discipleship, the doctrine and order of worship for the Church laid down by the Apostles, and infallible boilerplate prophecy.

Denial of the doctrine of eternal damnation. Check.
Denial of the Millennial Reign. Check.
Denial of men only pastors. Check.
Denial of the future redemption of the nation Israel. Check.

I am NOT casting these aspersions YOUR way....necessarily. But this message board is FULL of apostasy, rebellion and heresy. Just outright denial....it is to me amazing. But not unexpected given the signs of the times.

Consider the following:


[quoting paragraph excerpt from "The Coming Kingdom: An Outline of the Revelation" by G V Wigram]

"The first Adam in Eden pointed like a finger post to Him that was to come, was a type of Him as the last Adam, and yet He who was the last Adam existed before the first, even in eternity. In the garden of Eden, Adam was created first, and out of a crooked rib taken from his side while he slept Eve was formed.' In its separation from the human body, such a thing would be in itself most unsightly, yet God built it up into Eve as a companion and helpmeet for him. The last Adam will have a bride, the confidante of His love, the church formed by the Holy Spirit a new creation in Christ Jesus."

--GV Wigram, Bible Truth Publishers

[end quoting]




Genesis 2 -

21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the area with flesh. 22 And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him. 23 And the man said:

“This is now bone of my bones

and flesh of my flesh;

she shall be called ‘woman,’

for out of man she was taken.”





Luke 24:39 - [Jesus, on His Resurrection Day... later that same evening, after the Jn20:17 thing]

"See My hands and My feet, that I am He. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having."





Isaiah 46 -

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

I don't have any feelings on this topic because I'm right and scripture supports me. That's all I need. Your verses say nothing about "chaff" burning forever in torment. That's a fact. No thanks, keep your snake oil. I'll stick with what the Bible says.

Interestingly, unfallen Adam "flesh and bone" (no blood?), resurrected Jesus "flesh and bone" (no blood?).

Just an observation. Some say the life principle of redeemed men will no longer be blood, but Spirit.

I suppose it's always possible that Runningman has me on "ignore" [??]... I do not recall his having responded to my posts on this...