It's time to wake Judaism up and get them Grafted back in.

pittsburghjoe · Nov 2, 2021

Is the core difference between Judaism and Christianity, their definition of "The Messiah" and how many there should be?

The Angel Gabriel with the message of Daniel 9:25-26 didn't seem worthy enough for them to take note of?

The linchpin of Jewish excuses is the words "Messiah" and "Anointed".

Some like to claim "Messiah" can be a title to basically anyone that wants it.

"Someone anointed with oil by a Temple official, or other authority designated by G-d"

They use Isaiah 45:1 as an example:

Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Some claim Christians changed this use of "anointed" from "messiah" ...but that claim falls apart after looking at the dead sea scrolls: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#45:1

So, let's compare Isaiah 45:1 to Daniel 9:25. At first, it looks like they have a point with "māšîaḥ" but if we look at the Masoretic Text we see a difference. Inflected versus Root.

"Messiah" and "Anointed" have the same Root. But Judaism has a problem because "Messiah" remains the same when Inflected. Isaiah 45:1 has someone that was "Anointed" ...not that the person was "Messiah" like in Daniel 9:25!

This alone is enough to say they can't clown with the word "Messiah" anymore, but then they like to bring up 1 Samuel 16:12-13 ...that's not even the same word. It is missing an important character.

They might realize how monumentally important Daniel 9 was.

pittsburghjoe · Nov 3, 2021

Just because "Messiah" and "Anointed" use the same root doesn't mean someone Anointed is automatically a Messiah.

If Jews understood this, they wouldn't be Jewish anymore after looking at Daniel 9:25-26.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Lucy-Pevensie · Nov 3, 2021

As far as the thread title, Judaism is normally a descriptor of Talmudic Judaism which will not be gratfed in.

Concerning the body- Is the Gentile church as it is today, in any fit state to make Jews envious?
On the bright side, there are more believing Jews and Messianic congregations in Israel now that at any time.
The promises of The Lord will come to pass in his timing.

pittsburghjoe · Nov 3, 2021

Judaism claims the Book of Daniel is not The Word of GOD, but they ignore the direct Messenger of GOD'S Word named Gabriel that gave Daniel a message in the 9th chapter?

p_rehbein · Nov 3, 2021

Best I recall, waking up Israel and then being grafted back in is not up to us

Pretty sure that is up to God

ewq1938 · Nov 3, 2021

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

G1275
διαπαντός
diapantos
dee-ap-an-tos'
From G1223 and the genitive of G3956; through all time, that is, (adverbially) constantly: - alway (-s), continually.
Total KJV occurrences: 7

Doesn't look like God is ever going to open some peoples eyes.

pittsburghjoe · Nov 6, 2021

If מָשִׁיחַ (mâshîyach) directly sits before someone's role like "Prince" in Masoretic text or it is sitting by itself (Daniel 9:25-26), It has a Special Title (GOD'S Elect). Each only happen once in scripture because it is talking about The MESSIAH (The Anointed One/GOD'S Son).

pittsburghjoe · Nov 7, 2021

Daniel 9:24 says "to anoint the most Holy" and the next verse has מָשִׁיחַ (mâshîyach) directly before someone’s role which doesn't happen anywhere else in scripture, how is this not The MESSIAH (the most Holy Anointed)?

pittsburghjoe · Nov 7, 2021

Is the actual MESSIAH the only one with a direct Anointed Title because He was the only one to live without sin in His Blood? Jews know The MESSIAH will be Anointed ...well, this is why.

pittsburghjoe · Nov 7, 2021

Unblemished Lamb.

There is now a direct connection between Daniel 9:24-26 and Isaiah 53:7–10. Who was "cut off"?

Daniel 9:24-26
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Isaiah 53:7–10
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

pittsburghjoe · Nov 8, 2021

If JESUS became the Holy of Holies וְלִמְשֹׁחַ קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים (v’limshach Kodesh Kadashim), then the abomination of desolation is false religion/idols?

GOD'S Presence isn't going to be any new physical temple. Don't wait for one to get Right with GOD.

Lucy-Pevensie · Nov 8, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I wonder why would anyone stop reading at verse 10.

Romans 11
11 Again I ask: did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

pittsburghjoe · Nov 8, 2021

Why would the Holy of Holies (Kodesh Kadashim) need Anointed in Daniel 9:24 if it was talking about a physical Temple?

JESUS became GOD'S Presence on earth. Where Heaven and Earth overlap. Lamb of GOD, The Temple Sacrifice.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

pittsburghjoe · Nov 8, 2021

Daniel 9:24 says whoever it is talking about in the next two verses is equal to The Presence of GOD!!!!

וְלִמְשֹׁחַ קֹדֶשׁ קָדָשִׁים (v’limshach Kodesh Kadashim)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/dan/9/24/t_conc_859024

pittsburghjoe · Nov 8, 2021

If the Holy of Holies is being Anointed for the first time (Daniel 9:24), does that mean a Living Person is representing the Holy of Holies in Daniel 9:25–26?

pittsburghjoe · Nov 8, 2021

To Anoint the Holy of Holies (Daniel 9:24), GOD'S Presence in Human Form, GOD'S SON ...The Anointed Prince in the next verse.

ewq1938 · Nov 8, 2021

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Does that mean you disagree with what verse 10 says? God promises that some Jews will be blinded forever.

pittsburghjoe · Nov 8, 2021

You can Anoint the things in The Holy of Holies inner room, but you can't Anoint The Holy of Holies Itself because it is GOD'S Presence. The SON of GOD, as GOD’S Presence as a Man on Earth, was Baptized and became Anointed.

Jocund · Nov 8, 2021

1) The original Hebrew manuscripts have no vowels (the vowels represented by dots are interpolated). Much of the hidden dispute has been premised on how the vowels should be added as it changes the meaning in many cases.

2) I'm not sure why anyone should count Christianity as a collective of Gentiles. How awful to imply that all of the descendents of the orginal Jewish Christians somehow died out or didn't integrate and flourish in Christian society. Even if someone doesn't have the benefit of knowing their ancestry, chances are very high that if your family lines have been Christian for a very long time that you are also Israelite by birthright. The descendants of the early Jewish Christians didn't just disappear or magic away, they married with others of the church and continued Christian families. In Christianity, birthright isn't important, firstly because there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christianity but also because not of Israel are Israel and the seed of the promise is counted through Christ. Calling all Christians Gentiles is hateful and yet it is a persistent narrative. The political state that calls itself Israel does not represent the priesthood of biblical Israel, Christ does. Christ is the head of the current priesthood and has not been replaced. Do Jews that were reborn into Christianity suddenly stop being part of Israel? Do their descendants stop being part of Israel? We might see this concept of "you no longer count as X after so many generations" but that is not inherently a Christian concept.

3) To understand why Talmudic Judaism rejects Christ, one needs look no further than the Talmud, which states that Jesus is a false prophet currently burning in boiling excrement. It is a common misconception that modern Rabbinic Judaism only follows the Old Testament and that their religious outlook could be understood and persuaded by only looking at the OT. It isn't true. They are a cousin religion that has their own New Testament in the form of the Talmud, a text that among other things teaches that one should treat outsiders unfairly and to never save them from danger unless it has a personal benefit. If that isn't a sign that the Talmud is wicked, I don't what would convince you otherwise. It is absolutely antiChristian. Why should anyone have reverence for a cousin that rejects God? We should have hope that they reject their wrongful ways and search for Christ to find salvation, not reverence for their rejection of God. They should be regarded like a cousin with bad habits that is going through rehab, not addressed like some royalty. We should appreciate that at some point in their lives they too may be called to Christ and join as brothers and sisters, but we should also accept that not all that call themselves Jews will be saved.

Islam also sees itself as Israel or the true Jews, the difference is that Moslems actually accept Jesus as the Messiah, born from a virgin. Islam just doesn't recognize Jesus Christ as God. We've even had a Moslem join the forum at one point and he called himself a Messianic Jew. Christianity has more in common with Islam than it does with modern Rabbinic Judaism (Talmudic Judaism). And yet we see hatred toward Moslems from Talmudic Jews as well, and the excuse is often pointed to the Rabbinic concept of how the promise is not counted through every descendant of Israel. How ironic that the Rabbinical order asks us to forsake the truth of Romans 9:6 in favour of their own interpretation of how the seed is counted.

4) It's not as though NonChristian Jews throughout the ages haven't been reborn into Christianity. There are many through the ages that turned to Christ. It's not as though "all NonChristian Jews will join after every Gentile joins", but certainly those that are destined to find Christ through their nature will find Christ in their own time.

I have seen many advocates for the concept that NonChristian Jews receive a separate salvation than Christians, including details about raptures and OT promises that somehow only only apply to NonChristian Jews, but I have yet to see even one of those interpretations that is internally consistent without first rejecting portions of NT scripture.

pittsburghjoe · Nov 8, 2021

Jocund said:

1) The original Hebrew manuscripts have no vowels (the vowels represented by dots are interpolated). Much of the hidden dispute has been premised on how the vowels should be added as it changes the meaning in many cases.

2) I'm not sure why anyone should count Christianity as a collective of Gentiles. How awful to imply that all of the descendents of the orginal Jewish Christians somehow died out or didn't integrate and flourish in Christian society. Even if someone doesn't have the benefit of knowing their ancestry, chances are very high that if your family lines have been Christian for a very long time that you are also Israelite by birthright. The descendants of the early Jewish Christians didn't just disappear or magic away, they married with others of the church and continued Christian families. In Christianity, birthright isn't important, firstly because there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christianity but also because not of Israel are Israel and the seed of the promise is counted through Christ. Calling all Christians Gentiles is hateful and yet it is a persistent narrative. The political state that calls itself Israel does not represent the priesthood of biblical Israel, Christ does. Christ is the head of the current priesthood and has not been replaced. Do Jews that were reborn into Christianity suddenly stop being part of Israel? Do their descendants stop being part of Israel? We might see this concept of "you no longer count as X after so many generations" but that is not inherently a Christian concept.

3) To understand why Talmudic Judaism rejects Christ, one needs look no further than the Talmud, which states that Jesus is a false prophet currently burning in boiling excrement. It is a common misconception that modern Rabbinic Judaism only follows the Old Testament and that their religious outlook could be understood and persuaded by only looking at the OT. It isn't true. They are a cousin religion that has their own New Testament in the form of the Talmud, a text that among other things teaches that one should treat outsiders unfairly and to never save them from danger unless it has a personal benefit. If that isn't a sign that the Talmud is wicked, I don't what would convince you otherwise. It is absolutely antiChristian. Why should anyone have reverence for a cousin that rejects God? We should have hope that they reject their wrongful ways and search for Christ to find salvation, not reverence for their rejection of God. They should be regarded like a cousin with bad habits that is going through rehab, not addressed like some royalty. We should appreciate that at some point in their lives they too may be called to Christ and join as brothers and sisters, but we should also accept that not all that call themselves Jews will be saved.

Islam also sees itself as Israel or the true Jews, the difference is that Moslems actually accept Jesus as the Messiah, born from a virgin. Islam just doesn't recognize Jesus Christ as God. We've even had a Moslem join the forum at one point and he called himself a Messianic Jew. Christianity has more in common with Islam than it does with modern Rabbinic Judaism (Talmudic Judaism). And yet we see hatred toward Moslems from Talmudic Jews as well, and the excuse is often pointed to the Rabbinic concept of how the promise is not counted through every descendant of Israel. How ironic that the Rabbinical order asks us to forsake the truth of Romans 9:6 in favour of their own interpretation of how the seed is counted.

4) It's not as though NonChristian Jews throughout the ages haven't been reborn into Christianity. There are many through the ages that turned to Christ. It's not as though "all NonChristian Jews will join after every Gentile joins", but certainly those that are destined to find Christ through their nature will find Christ in their own time.

I have seen many advocates for the concept that NonChristian Jews receive a separate salvation than Christians, including details about raptures and OT promises that somehow only only apply to NonChristian Jews, but I have yet to see even one of those interpretations that is internally consistent without first rejecting portions of NT scripture.

Judgment Declared

Luke 19:41-42

And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

//JESUS basically says "You had your chance".

Luke 19:43-44
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

It's time to wake Judaism up and get them Grafted back in.

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