How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

The important thing you need to be seeing in what I am about to say to you is that Revelation 14 doesn't demonstrate a pre-trib rapture. Why? Because in pre-trib rapture theology, the church is removed before the wicked are punished. In the Bible, the wicked are harvested/gathered first to be destroyed: Matthew 13:30 "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them"

I believe I have tried to show you this more than once. Maybe a second time will finally get your attention.

I would wager that you have not done your homework on the Harvest of the Earth. The Bible says more about the harvest of the Earth than what is merely mentioned in Revelation 14. Notice in Revelation 14 there are two harvests: one done by Jesus and another done by an angel.

Jesus harvests the earth:
Revelation 14:14-16
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Angel harvests the earth:
Revelation 14:17-20
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Commentary by Runningman: The only harvest of the earth that Jesus spoke of what the harvest of the wheat and the weeds. The harvest of the grapes mentioned in Revelation 14 is most likely added for dramatic effect to emphasize unrighteous people being killed: "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Angels harvest the wheat:
Matthew 13:30
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Angels harvest of the weeds:
Matthew 13:30
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:40-43
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Yeah, it was written fast as it was dinner - but it does say 'after'

Thank you

In at least 4 posts in this thread, I made mention that "we / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are not the "WHEAT" harvest...

There is more than one harvest both in scripture and in nature (not to mention, more than one "FIRSTFRUIT" James1:18 and Lev23 [TWO mentions!]): the "WHEAT" harvest is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement);
whereas the EARLIER harvest, by means of being "TOSSED UP INTO THE AIR and BLOWING away the chaff".
Those posts:

Post #694 (in the bottom half of that post; page 35) - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4652732

Post #912 (page 46) - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4654740

Post #1790 (page 90) - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4672863


[and briefly in...]

Post #1546 (page 78) - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4671380







[at the time of "our Rapture" it says, "the LORD HIMSELF"... whereas at the time of the WHEAT harvest, it says, "HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS and THEY shall..."]

How many 'harvests' does the Lord Jesus Christ say there is in His Gospel?

Also, please define a 'harvest' from the Gospel definition only - thank you.

Per you request, i made changes to the NJT(New Jerusalem Times)

You know, i think you nailed it!
The Apostle John fits that description of the men you just put forth.

"I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation.........."

And the Big Guy that told John what to write said this:
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book................."

BOY OH BOY, the next thing you know - we are reading a Book called 'the Apocalypse'

All that error from just One Book from a KING who is Hot with wrath for a Dragon and those who follow the Dragon.

One Good point out of the Book is that whoever resists the Dragon with Lamb's Blood and True Words are ushered in to this Magnificent Kingdom and will never be subject to Death again - FOREVER ALIVE.

New Jerusalem Times - Read All About It - Get Your Paper Here -

Day 1 -Dragon goes on bloody rampage
Day 2 - KING kills Dragon
Day 3 - KING's Servants Resurrected

First off, DavidTree, let me say this... you've asked me this question before, but it doesn't seem like you "heard" my answer (which I've given many times in many different ways).

One way I've responded was with the following passage Jesus said just before He went to the Cross to die:

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

--John 16


["...will guide you into all the truth" speaks of what we now have recorded in the completed canon: 1Cor2:10,16b and Col1:25, etc]

^ ETA: up to the time Jesus spoke His OLIVET DISCOURSE (and throughout His response there in both chapters, 24 & 25), Jesus had NOT YET spoken ANYTHING about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but rather ALL ABOUT His Second Coming TO THE EARTH for the promised *and prophesied* EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (aka "the age [SINGULAR] to come"... aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER"... aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [all earthly-located])

John 16 - favorite passage of mine

We see those "many things" in the writings of the Apostles and finally Revelation ITSELF.

And in all of the "many things" that the Lord revealed to the Apostles, there is one constant theme/Truth which is the First Resurrection occurs at His Coming and AFTER that - those who Christ brings thru the Tribulation will be raptured.

I know what the Harvest means according to the words of the LORD.

Heres a clue for you - HE has not changed His Mind or His Plan or His Gospel or His Revelation.

That's WHAT I JUST SAID.

So I've pointed out how James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (because there is MORE THAN ONE *kind*--Just as Lev23 showed... I pointed out the TWO mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Leviticus 23! [Rev14:4 connects with the SECOND of these TWO mentions! Lev23:17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<---THAT AIN'T US!!])

I've pointed out where, in Paul's epistles (in more than one place), we [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest.

I've pointed out NUMEROUS other issues in the epistles and in Revelation, showing this very thing.

But it's like you're not listening...

God does not separate us according to grains in the field.

Think: Joseph and the Coat of man Colors

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:
24God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
27so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.
30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Notice how the Apostle Paul does not mix things up but stays on course looking forward to the Resurrection.

We can sum it up as such:
All men created equal = in the Image of God = One Blood
Nations protected by God from satan by set boundaries and times
Freedom to seek after God = Gospel preached throughout the world
We are all the offspring of God = no difference between Jew and Gentile = One Blood One Gospel One God
Same Repentence for the Jew as for the Gentile = SAME
All will be Judged by One Gospel - One Righteousness - One Resurrected Savior
One Day appointed - His Coming

I disagree with that and for good reasons.

What Jesus describes in Matthew 13:39-43 (and repeated in Matthew 24) is what Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10:

Matt. 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matt. 13:39-43
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt. 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
...
Matt. 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1 Thess. 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

See, it's very simple as I explained to @Absolutely , who does seem to understand that the Harvest of the Earth is a description of the rapture, but like you, he has incorrectly placed the harvest/rapture pre-trib, a gross error that disregards scripture. Please examine the color-coded verses above. I can keep going with even more verses, but this should be enough for the honest Bible studier.

How can the harvest of the earth be equivalent to the Rapture when it is described in terms of judgment and wrath? The winepress of the wrath of God!

SO NOTE CAREFULLY ALL WHO ARE STUMBLING OVER THE RAPTURE (REV 14)
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The first reaping is the rapture of the righteous/saved; the second is the Wrath of God upon the wicked.

Well, I'm not going to spend a lot of time tonight re-posting everything I've posted on these passages in the past... but just leave some of the main bullet points for the readers to consider (and they can either ask for clarification or look up those abundant past posts)... here's just a few points from them:

--2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is covering a SPANS OF TIME (just as 2Th2:9-12 is!!)--this is *KEY*; and verse 7 reads: "ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE WITH US *IN THE REVELATION OF* the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those that know not God and..." (again, SAME PERSONS being spoken of in the same SPANS OF TIME that 2Th2:9-12 is speaking about! Aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 is referring to [i.e. the 7 yr period leading up to Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19, aka the SEALS / TRUMPETS / VIALS... note the "7 angels" associated with the Trumpets and the Vials; and the same "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" spoken of in Lk18:8 "AVENGE in quickness [NOUN]" and used in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness [NOUN]"; and the parallel language used in 2Th2:7b-8a to that of Lam2:3-4 [also using the phrase "IN FLAMING FIRE"], where both passages speak of a restraint being LIFTED:
"the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be]. AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked BE REVEALED..." /
/"he hath DRAWN BACK his right hand FROM BEFORE THE ENEMY..." [effectively saying, "have at it!" i.e. the restraint being lifted]; compare also Hab1:6,12 to this (what God uses to mete out "judgments" on the earth);
Bottom line: 2Th1 and 2Th2 are each speaking of a SPANS OF TIME, not merely a singular 24-hr day... so what follows that "rest with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." [what follows the BOLD/UNDERLINE part (re: us / the Church which is His body) is the VENGEANCE part that unfolds over a SPANS OF TIME (certain ones existing on the earth during the 7 yr period--see again 2Th2:9b-12 "...God shall SEND TO THEM great delusion so that THEY should believe THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI"<--i.e. over this SPANS OF TIME)]);

--Matt13:24,30,39-50 "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (which is immediately followed by "the AGE [SINGULAR] to come," what we now call "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth]," which is what His disciples correctly understood Him to be referring to, but they just did not understand the "TIMING" of it; aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (on the earth); aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (like in Jesus' response to their LATER Q of Him in Matt24:3, which question was BASED ON what He'd ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50); So everything in Matt24 & 25 is telling about things which will unfold upon the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture" ("Rapture" was NOT the Subject Jesus was covering ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse); Additionally, Matt13's "gather" takes place in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]";

--Matt24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9[Rom11:27,25,15],12-13 (not describing "our Rapture")... note "TO WHERE" and "WHO" and "IN WHAT MANNER" (etc, etc) and see that it is in every way DISTINCT from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"

--I could say much more, but this post is long enough already... = )


See my point at the top, regarding this passage... there's more I could say, but that's just the basic point...

KEY is "Do not add to or take away from God's words" = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 2 Thess 2:1-3 , 1 Timothy 4:1 , 1 John 2:18-19 , Rev chs 1-20
Matthew 24

1.) We wait for His Coming - 1 Thess 1:10
2.) Falling away(fulfilled) and Antichrist comes first - 2 Thess 2:1-3 , 1 Timothy 4:1 , 1 John 2:18-19 , Matt 24:10 , Rev ch 1- 18
3.) We endure tribulations/persecutions - Genesis to Revelation
4.) His Coming & Resurrection Firstfruits in Their Order AFTER that Rapture of Saints who remained - 1 Thess 4:17 , John 17 , Rev 3:10

What you posted is FALSEHOOD and a complete LIE

The Bride of Christ came up to Him and asked Him when is HE Coming Back:
While Jesus(Bridegroom) was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples(Bride) came to Him privately.
“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
He who has the bride is the bridegroom;

Actually you meant 2Thes 1:7-10.

The apokalupsis of v.7 has everything to do with the vengeance of v.8. Paul is not going to the lengths of describing our rapture event in explicit detail here, as he has already done so earlier.

Yes, and Paul and Jesus are in agreement. What Christ described in Matthew 13 is what Paul said in plain language in 2 Thessalonians 1. The harvest of the earth takes place at the rapture. Do you see Matthew 24:28 in a whole new light bow? There will be eagles gathered at corpses; it'll be a bloodbath. Also check Matthew 24:36-41... "As the days of Noe were..." and "one taken another left."

This is just playing games with the passage. Where does it is say anything about the righteous being harvested at that time? "The harvest of the earth" means those who do not have their citizenship in Heaven.

I showed you above in Matthew 13.

The parable of the wheat and the tares, Matt. 13: 24-30 and 36-43, describes the harvest of the wicked and good as one event. Notice there no mention about a span of seven years separating the harvests.

“Gather ye together first the tares (the wicked).” According to Jesus, the wheat is not harvested before the tares.