Efficacy of prayer

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Zachary24

Senior Member
#1
Jul 26, 2017
205
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#1
I’m not trying to create issues, it’s just something thats been bothering me. How do we continue to pray when we have empirical evidence over multiple studies that prayer does not affect medical outcomes and could be extrapolated to suggest that prayer doesn’t affect anything at all?

This is coming from someone who prays consistently and has and will continue to pray for those who ask on this site.

I’m hoping some of you can give me some insight. God bless you.
 
G

Gideon300

Well-known member
#2
Mar 18, 2021
5,347
3,150
113
#2
Zachary24 said:
I’m not trying to create issues, it’s just something thats been bothering me. How do we continue to pray when we have empirical evidence over multiple studies that prayer does not affect medical outcomes and could be extrapolated to suggest that prayer doesn’t affect anything at all?

This is coming from someone who prays consistently and has and will continue to pray for those who ask on this site.

I’m hoping some of you can give me some insight. God bless you.
Click to expand...
"Empirical evidence"? What does that mean? I have been born again 50 years and I can testify to countless answered prayers. I've found that either people believe me or they don't. I'm not a lab rat for some self appointed expert to observe. Neither do I have to prove anything to anybody. I have a personal relationship with my God in heaven and Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. It makes zero difference to me whether anyone believes me or not. I know the truth. That's good enough for me. Not good enough for anyone else? Tough.

Alright, just one of countless answers to prayer. I was seriously ill with a potentially fatal illness, pancreatitis to be exact. I was so sick I could scarcely pray. My Christian friend came to visit me every day. One day, the doctor came while she was there. My friend prayed, out loud, that my condition would revert to normal. I'd witnessed to the doctor, an Asian woman, previously. She was from a Christian home but not a believer. I was prepped for an operation but they kept putting it off. After 5 days they decided to let me eat again and on the 8th day I went home. The doctor, unprompted, told me that she saw my friend's prayer answered word for word.

Doubt and unbelief are a great blight and curse, and the worst sin that anyone can commit. By saying that God does not answer prayer, you are calling Him a liar. Satan is behind all this. The sooner God's people believe what He says and reject Satan's lies the better.
 
Seeker47

Seeker47

Well-known member
#3
Aug 7, 2018
1,128
962
113
#3
I believe:

Any "empirical study" begins with an assumption. If the assumption is that there is no evidence of a one-to-one relationship between prayer and outcome, the assumption will be proven. If the assumption is that prayer is effective, but not one-to-one, it is unproveable. A double-blind study is impossible as prayer cannot be quantified.

The faithful have found that prayer is 100% effective. When we pray something changes, it may or may not be the outcome but in every case something changes. Many times we get off our knees and go do something, every time we are spiritually changed.

Lets do a historic empirical study. Lets study the prevalence of prayer throughout history. Lets apply modern sociological and evolutionary science to the issue. Both sociology and evolution state that ineffective and unnecessary institutions die. Prayer has been here since the beginning. After this we can go one to personal experience which science wants to ignore; but is actually the only way we can know anything.

C.S. Lewis wrote a fantastic book, Miracles that is worth the time and effort it takes to study. It's not an easy read, but Lewis answers the questions of faith and science. For me, the book is fundamental.
 
Lynx

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
#4
Aug 13, 2014
27,362
9,376
113
#4
Zachary24 said:
I’m not trying to create issues, it’s just something thats been bothering me. How do we continue to pray when we have empirical evidence over multiple studies that prayer does not affect medical outcomes and could be extrapolated to suggest that prayer doesn’t affect anything at all?

This is coming from someone who prays consistently and has and will continue to pray for those who ask on this site.

I’m hoping some of you can give me some insight. God bless you.
Click to expand...
What is prayer? Prayer is talking to God. In this case, prayer is asking God to do something.

What do you do when God does not do what you ask? The same thing any child does when the parent does not do what he asks. He either goes off to do something else, keeps nagging the parent, pitches a fit or tries to do it himself. Personally I prefer the option about going off and doing something else.
 
shittim

shittim

Senior Member
#5
Dec 16, 2016
13,805
7,786
113
#5
Zachary24 said:
I’m not trying to create issues, it’s just something thats been bothering me. How do we continue to pray when we have empirical evidence over multiple studies that prayer does not affect medical outcomes and could be extrapolated to suggest that prayer doesn’t affect anything at all?

This is coming from someone who prays consistently and has and will continue to pray for those who ask on this site.

I’m hoping some of you can give me some insight. God bless you.
Click to expand...

Learn how to pray effectively.....
My prayers are effective, MANY I know have effective prayer lives, do you invite Holy Spirit?
Are you Spirit filled?
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#6
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
113
#6
For those interested, I did a couple of blogs on prayer, you can find them Here and Here

Armour of God, Here
 
M

MatthewWestfieldUK

Well-known member
#7
May 13, 2021
871
498
63
#7
I pray not for change in my circumstances. I pray for my right thinking, right attitude, right action and preservation of my faith.
 
Lynx

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
#8
Aug 13, 2014
27,362
9,376
113
#8
MatthewWestfieldUK said:
I pray not for change in my circumstances. I pray for my right thinking, right attitude, right action and preservation of my faith.
Click to expand...
Or in the words of the old song, "Don't worry, be happy"?
 
shittim

shittim

Senior Member
#9
Dec 16, 2016
13,805
7,786
113
#9
MatthewWestfieldUK said:
I pray not for change in my circumstances. I pray for my right thinking, right attitude, right action and preservation of my faith.
Click to expand...
I pray and often command His perfect will be done.
 
Gardenias

Gardenias

Well-known member
#10
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
1,117
113
U.S.A.
#10
Ja.5:16 Confess your faults one to another,and pray one for another,that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Our prayer time and language is something so beautiful. So beautiful that God keeps it in golden vials. Rev 5:8,,it will also be used as incense before God. Rev.8:4

Effectual means having an effect on someone or something or a situation.
The scripture in James at the top has the formula for this type prayer. We have to confess our faults and pray for one another. Jesus said if we don't forgive then we cannot be forgiven. Mt.6:14.

We must examine ourselves daily. Mt. 7:5, 2 For.11:28,2 For.13:5. We must make sure all is right between God and our brethren before we can come to God and expect him to answer our prayers.

Fervent is having or displaying a passionate intensity. ( on fire,with heat)
How did Jesus pray in the garden....until his sweat became as great drops of blood.

We must believe with everything in us never doubting that our God is willing and able to do as we ask. The NT is full of verses on asking or talking with God in faith.
 
Gardenias

Gardenias

Well-known member
#11
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
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#11
Gen 4:26

After God created all things,after sin and being cast out of the garden,after Cain,killed Able,with Seth's son Enos,THEN MAN BEGAN TO CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD!

God said " call unto me and I will answer you and show you great and mighty things of which you thought naught".

Prayer is not just a time to talk to our Father,it is also a time of revealing. The Spirits revealing unto us our slackness,our unforgiveness,even our error of thinking.

It touches the heart of God when we ask of him,for Jesus said a good father wouldn't give a stone in place of bread for a child who asked. How much MORE will our Father give when we ask!
 
Gardenias

Gardenias

Well-known member
#12
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
1,117
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U.S.A.
#12
Phil.4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in EVERYTHING by PRAYER and supplication with THANKSGIVING let your request be made known unto God

1Thess.5:17 Pray without ceasing.
 
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Gojira

Guest
#13
#13
Gideon300 said:
"Empirical evidence"? What does that mean? I have been born again 50 years and I can testify to countless answered prayers. I've found that either people believe me or they don't. I'm not a lab rat for some self appointed expert to observe. Neither do I have to prove anything to anybody. I have a personal relationship with my God in heaven and Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. It makes zero difference to me whether anyone believes me or not. I know the truth. That's good enough for me. Not good enough for anyone else? Tough.

Alright, just one of countless answers to prayer. I was seriously ill with a potentially fatal illness, pancreatitis to be exact. I was so sick I could scarcely pray. My Christian friend came to visit me every day. One day, the doctor came while she was there. My friend prayed, out loud, that my condition would revert to normal. I'd witnessed to the doctor, an Asian woman, previously. She was from a Christian home but not a believer. I was prepped for an operation but they kept putting it off. After 5 days they decided to let me eat again and on the 8th day I went home. The doctor, unprompted, told me that she saw my friend's prayer answered word for word.

Doubt and unbelief are a great blight and curse, and the worst sin that anyone can commit. By saying that God does not answer prayer, you are calling Him a liar. Satan is behind all this. The sooner God's people believe what He says and reject Satan's lies the better.
Click to expand...
And yet we do not see the kind of miraculous healings we read about in the NT. No one's walking in anyone's shadow getting 100% cured.

I understand what Zachary's trying to say. James says that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. Well, either I'm not saved or my prayers are not powerful. Frankly, I see this in the lives of other Christians as well, Christians whose walks I have more trust in than my own. I'm not sure what exactly is meant then by "powerful and effective".

This is not to say that I've never experienced answers or miracles. I have. But, if prayers were investments and answers were profits, I'd probably have a pretty mediocre portfolio right now.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#14
Jul 3, 2015
60,169
29,468
113
#14
Zachary24 said:
I’m not trying to create issues, it’s just something thats been bothering me. How do we continue to pray when we have empirical evidence over multiple studies that prayer does not affect medical outcomes and could be extrapolated to suggest that prayer doesn’t affect anything at all?
Click to expand...
Are you completely unaffected by your prayer life?
 
G

Gideon300

Well-known member
#15
Mar 18, 2021
5,347
3,150
113
#15
Gojira said:
And yet we do not see the kind of miraculous healings we read about in the NT. No one's walking in anyone's shadow getting 100% cured.

I understand what Zachary's trying to say. James says that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. Well, either I'm not saved or my prayers are not powerful. Frankly, I see this in the lives of other Christians as well, Christians whose walks I have more trust in than my own. I'm not sure what exactly is meant then by "powerful and effective".

This is not to say that I've never experienced answers or miracles. I have. But, if prayers were investments and answers were profits, I'd probably have a pretty mediocre portfolio right now.
Click to expand...
It's not just our individual walk that makes the difference. Lord Jesus was hindered by the unbelief of the people of Nazareth. Could they have been any more unbelieving than the current generation? (Mark 6:5)

I live in Australia. Indonesia is not far from us. There was a revival there that was like the book of Acts. One account is of a group of missionaries in a car. The river was impassable due to a flood. They closed their eyes and prayed. When they finished, they discovered that they were on the other side of the river.

Kurt Koch was an expert in the occult and had a healthy scepticism of what seemed to be miraculous. He heard about the revival and went to Indonesia to check it out. His conclusion: it was genuine. The miracles could be confirmed.

It was a long time ago and there is not a lot of information around now. I read his book and I found it convincing.
 
G

Gojira

Guest
#16
#16
Gideon300 said:
It's not just our individual walk that makes the difference. Lord Jesus was hindered by the unbelief of the people of Nazareth. Could they have been any more unbelieving than the current generation? (Mark 6:5)

I live in Australia. Indonesia is not far from us. There was a revival there that was like the book of Acts. One account is of a group of missionaries in a car. The river was impassable due to a flood. They closed their eyes and prayed. When they finished, they discovered that they were on the other side of the river.

Kurt Koch was an expert in the occult and had a healthy scepticism of what seemed to be miraculous. He heard about the revival and went to Indonesia to check it out. His conclusion: it was genuine. The miracles could be confirmed.

It was a long time ago and there is not a lot of information around now. I read his book and I found it convincing.
Click to expand...
It seems these kinds of events are confined to traditionally non-Christian areas. The West is no longer seeing these kinds of things. There might be a correlation there.
 
arpon

arpon

Junior Member
#17
Feb 24, 2017
73
25
8
34
#17
Zachary24 said:
I’m not trying to create issues, it’s just something that's been bothering me. How do we continue to pray when we have empirical evidence over multiple studies that prayer does not affect medical outcomes and could be extrapolated to suggest that prayer doesn’t affect anything at all?

This is coming from someone who prays consistently and has and will continue to pray for those who ask on this site.

I’m hoping some of you can give me some insight. God bless you.
Click to expand...
I think matured prayer is not about our will be done but about- 'Father, your will be done.' (I am not matured yet. :p)

Another thing is- Our prayer might not be answered for many reason. Our unanswered prayer does not mean it is not heard. Some Biblical reason for unanswered prayer is-
1) Secret sin (Isaiah 59:2)
2) disbelieve (Jacob 1:6-8)
3) Wrong reason - Jacob 4:3 (Such as- If we try to prove that prayer works instead of loving the person for whom we pray.)
4) unforgiveness (mark 11:24-25) etc.

+ Many Healing does not require prayer. Its the fact. If you do take medical care it will heal you pray or not, it does not matter. That's why we need to do good work, we need to help people. God do not tell us to pray only. When there is no other way than God might answer our prayer with a healing touch, if it is good for the man to die than live, God might take him(What I know?).

I think God will not give us any proof that prayer works- to fill up our fieldwork on paper. Cause our main Goal should not be miracle works of God but the welfare of human being, believer or non believer.
 
G

Gideon300

Well-known member
#18
Mar 18, 2021
5,347
3,150
113
#18
Gojira said:
And yet we do not see the kind of miraculous healings we read about in the NT. No one's walking in anyone's shadow getting 100% cured.

I understand what Zachary's trying to say. James says that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. Well, either I'm not saved or my prayers are not powerful. Frankly, I see this in the lives of other Christians as well, Christians whose walks I have more trust in than my own. I'm not sure what exactly is meant then by "powerful and effective".

This is not to say that I've never experienced answers or miracles. I have. But, if prayers were investments and answers were profits, I'd probably have a pretty mediocre portfolio right now.
Click to expand...
There are some conditions to answered prayer, as I expect you know. Sometimes God wants to hear more than one voice. Some of the great victories in Australia, including a change of government a number of times, have been when God's people united in prayer.

Don't put yourself down. God always answers. Sometimes it's long after we've prayed because certain conditions must be fulfilled first. We may never see the answer in this life. All will be clear in the next.
 
G

Gideon300

Well-known member
#19
Mar 18, 2021
5,347
3,150
113
#19
Gojira said:
It seems these kinds of events are confined to traditionally non-Christian areas. The West is no longer seeing these kinds of things. There might be a correlation there.
Click to expand...
The West is much like Laodicea, comfortable, complacent and proud. The church is also blind to the problems that beset it. God's blessing is where there is unity. We don't see a whole lot of that.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#20
Jul 2, 2011
21,429
6,707
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#20
Yes, there are many occurrences of miracles everywhere, and people have witnessed them. Now, in this big world many may also be few, depending upon how they are considered.
 
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