If The Kingdom isn't here yet then what is JESUS CHRIST a King of?

Considering at least part of the biblical Israel represents Christianity, I don't see how that would be the case.

Romans 11 has Paul discussing the salvation of those that don't remain in disbelief, and by the act of many Israelites having a crisis in faith, nonIsraelites were called into the election. The thought being that the blindness is merely temporary for those who were truly Israel (see Romans 9:6), but not all Israelites will be grafted back in, which is why we see the conditional phasing in Romans 11:23. This is not a contradiction of "All Israel will be saved" because "Not all of Israel is Israel."

Paul is basically saying that despite being in opposition to the truth in the moment, some people have the correct nature to eventually find the truth and find Christ. And we see this blindness leave the 3000 Israelites in Acts when they put aside their apostasy and join Christianity.

When will the (temporary) blindness leave Israel? It probably has been doing so bit by bit for a long time now, as evidenced in Acts. The question we should be asking is whether he was talking about other Israelites finding salvation during their lifetime (just as he did) perhaps over many generations or whether there is some allusion to salvation at or after death (as we see with some interpretations of Jesus visiting the "prison"). True Israel is Christian. It is possible that a sheep may be covered in a goat's fur and think of itself as a goat, but at the heart of the matter it has always been a sheep and hears the calling of the sheppard.

#1 - i just want to thank you for the uplifting Scriptures you post when reponding to the topic at hand.

Notice, that when you post scripture - you say little or nothing at all because the Scripture Itself Speaks for Itself to us - Amen

pre-trib never came out of the mouths of the Prophets, the Lord or the Apostles - it cannot be found anywhere in Scripture.

When our Lord confronted satan in the wilderness, the LORD rebuked the devil with "It is written."

It is written in Matthew 24 that our Lord was asked specifically of when His Return, Second Coming, would be and HE gave us His answer:

While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you.

v29 -31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is HIS word on His Second Coming.
The Apostles Paul and John also confirmed this in their Letters and our Lord again reiterated this in Revelation.

So where did 'pre-trib rapture' come from since it never was spoken by the Lord, the Apostles or the Prophets.???

It came from the same source all lies come from - satan.

See what the Prophets said = https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/noah-daniel-and-job.202564/

Rom. 11:25-27

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

When Paul said ALL of Israel shall be saved, he meant ALL of Israel will be saved.

Who is Israel? Paul plainly tells us they are "Jacob." The natural seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! This rules out the Muslims!

God has now a remnant of Jacob, but for the most part Jacob (Israel) is in unbelief!

How will Jacob be saved? Paul also tells us, "there shall come out of Sion the Deliverer." The deliverer is Jesus Christ!

At the Second Coming (when the Deliverer comes) ALL of Jacob will be saved when they see Him!

David, we have disagreed on some points in other forums, but I am in complete agreement with what've you've expressed here. And I think Mofastus is wrong in saying it is an 'opinion' or that it is in 'vain' as he says here:

well I don't consider it to be a salvific issue, I watch those that trust in the pre-trib doctrines be just as boisterous as you are in what they believe and apparently if you haven't noticed yet, I think it's in vain, it makes it about opinions of the doctrines of men and not about Jesus and... It's all about Jesus! for me.

We as believers must and should stand for the truth and always call out false doctrine--we are to be imitators of Christ himself! And it could very well be a salvific issue if one is following 'another gospel'-- the idea that Jesus' reign comes at some later time is denying Christ IS ruling and reigning now! This is a serious error.

If Mostafus and others would look at the thing carefully, they would see what a dangerous error this is--it is one of the 'doctrines' of demons spoken of in scripture. There are too many pieces of this that go against the gospel, which I won't go into now.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves."--2 Peter 2:2 < note it says SOVEREIGN

Whatever is backed up with scripture--is a stance, not an opinion. Also David you quoted the verse "It is written"--I do see many Christians misinterpreting what Scripture says--sometimes because it is what they have been taught, sometimes because it is not clear to the, and so often because they have not tested scripture against scripture.

You say it is all about Jesus. Do you realize just how many false doctrines have infiltrated the church since Jesus' time? You really think it's okay to have 'opinions' and 'false doctrine' mixed in with the truth of the gospel as long as people believe in 'a' Jesus--that it doesn't have to be the Jesus of Scripture?

We as believers must and should stand for the truth and always call out false doctrine--we are to be imitators of Christ himself! And it could very well be a salvation issue if one is following 'another gospel'-- the idea that Jesus' reign comes at some later time is denying Christ IS ruling and reigning now! This is a serious error.

If you and others would look at the thing carefully, you would see what a dangerous error this is--it is one of the 'doctrines' of demons spoken of in scripture. There are too many pieces of this that go against the gospel, which I won't go into now.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves."--2 Peter 2:2 < note it says SOVEREIGN

Whatever is backed up with scripture--is a stance, not an opinion. David quoted the verse "It is written"--I see many Christians misinterpreting what Scripture says--sometimes because it is what they have been taught, sometimes because it is not clear to them, and so often because they have not tested scripture against scripture.

Yes, Dear Sister, few understand that once satan/demons unleash a false doctrine and then christians 'take the bait', it cascades into more lies = RCC is a clear example of this.

And as you stated, Jesus and the Apostles would instantly recognize the 'bait' and rebuke it.

EXAMPLE:
From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Mark 9:1: “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.” There would have to be living people over 2000 years old today if the Kingdom has not come! Also the Scriptures teach that the apostles were to receive power of the Holy Spirit that would enable them to preach the Gospel to the whole world (Acts 1:8). This power came to the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4).

The premillennialists argue that the land promise made to Abraham was never totally fulfilled. Yet Nehemiah 9:7-8 says that God had “performed thy words” to give the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites, and Girgashites to Abraham’s seed!

The premillennialists fail to see that the kingdom and the church refer to the same institution (Matt. 16:16-19) and that the kingdom of Christ is spiritual in nature (John 18:36).

The premillennialists fail to recognize that the Bible speaks of only ONE resurrection (John 5:28-29). They misrepresent through faulty interpretation the meaning of Revelation 20:1-6 and they fail to recognize that Jesus’ work on earth is FINISHED. Jesus said, I have glorified thee on earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do (John 17:4).

The premillennialists are victims of the fruitful imaginations of theologians. They should reject all the theories of men and go back to God’s Word to see the true nature of the church of Christ, which is the Kingdom of Christ.

-Glenn B. Ramsey
https://www.tn-biblecollege.edu/10/the-false-doctrine-of-premillennialism/

You can enter The Kingdom now.

Parable of Two Sons

Matthew 21:28-32
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Philippians 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

That's not true, Laura! The scripture plainly says in Joshua 13:1 that Joshua was old and stricken in years and the Lord said unto him, there yet remains very much land to be possessed! Then the Lord gives the many, many boundaries of the unpossessed land!

After Joshua the taking of the land ceased until David. He conquered the rest of the promised land but Israel never took possession of it. Those countries and peoples paid tribute to David and kept their land.

Full possession of the land promised to Abraham by God has yet to be fulfilled! It will be fulfilled at the Millennium reign.

Ezekiel 47:13 - 48 gives in detail the distribution of the promised land to the Jews.

Ezek. 47:13

"Thus saith the Lord God; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions."

No one would obey God by taking the possession of the land, not even David in all his kingdom.

It is Christ who takes the land for Israel when he returns! He will divide the land to the 12 tribes and Levites after destroying the anti-christ and bringing all nations into subjection to Him.

Mostafus--I know you certainly didn't intend to, but you prove my point with some of the verses you're quoting here, for example,

"Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"

The speck and the beam in the eye have nothing to do with exposing false doctrine in the church--I have proven your ideas wrong, but because of PRIDE which Christian Chat is full of, you twist scripture to somehow prove your point, rather than admit your 'believe in [any] Jesus' nothing else matters' idea is wrong.

"Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall."--Proverbs 16:18

This comes from the doctrine of men and is nowhere to be found in scripture--there are a multitude of verses that say the heavens and earth are destroyed immediately after Christ's Second coming--and there is only one more coming of Christ, not two.

"so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him."--Hebrews 9:27

There is no earthly kingdom to be on this present earth--i'm sorry, Charlie but you believe in a false doctrine invented by men.

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore be alert” (Acts 20:28–31)

Oh, but you are so wrong, that's what the Reformed world has led you to believe. For their interpretation to be correct all is spiritual and the literal falls by the way, so they say!!!

Jesus literally returns, He literally destroys the literal anti-christ, He literally establishes His Kingdom on this earth in Jerusalem and rules this earth with a rod of iron for 1000 years!

Please show me verses elsewhere in scripture that support a literal reign of christ on the earth. Only verses---no commentary please.

What makes you think I'm reformed? there are any number of christians who do not believe in millenniumism and in fact have never heard such teaching. i never heard it--i discovered it after researching denominations and various false doctrines that had infiltrated the church.

I left a nondenominational church because of it's watered down gospel and mascot 'jesus'; along with the same ole' same ole' tired script every single Sunday--and the DEADNESS--filled with people, yet so dead. After that I attended a Presbyterian Churches of America church for seven years--not once did I hear them preach on T.U.L.I.P. However, I found it curious that so many people who were new to the area had previously attended a PCA church--I joked one time to a member that it was odd--and that it seemed like a cult (because they would only attend a PCA Church--think Tim Keller)

Then at a women's study I said I wanted to be more intentional about sharing the gospel and you would've thought I was a Jehovah's witness. As I walked to my car I was wondering what their reaction was about--I did know something wasn't right and I wouldn't be returning. I prayed God would show me where they were coming from and reveal to me more of the mystery of the gospel. I went home and looked up John Calvin--let's just say I was like a Mormon discovering who Joseph Smith was. It took all of about 5 minutes.

In the non denoms they are always saying 'oh don't pay attention to the differences in the denominations--it doesn't matter' --what a lie. after that one prayer it was a domino effect--i discovered so much false doctrine that had infiltrated the church.

So all that to say I am definitely not reformed. And currently do not attend any church--I am seeking a house church.

I'll show you the literal reign of Christ on this earth when you show me it's to be taken spiritually!

I'm a dispensationalist, that is where we part ways, Laura! I believe in the literal interpretation of scripture until it becomes obvious it's not to be taken literally.

brother when Jesus went to be seated in the throne in heaven after that this happened on the day of pentocost when they received the Holy Spirit.

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:30, 32-33, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember what Jesus promised them

“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the kingdom is like a seed on earth that was planted from heaven and speared through one person witnessing the message of the gospel to another person and it goes from One persons heart to the next persons heart and spreads

The Holy Spirit coming to a persons life and heart is a portion of the kingdom coming to live in them as faith , of a promise of Gods word and after they die believing on earth ,

they would then receive the promises Jesus made about life after death that endures forever in his eternal kingdom of glory there’s a lot about the Holy Ghost that he said

but when the kingdom in heaven was set in order then Christ, sent the holy ghost to his disciples on earth at Pentecost. Fulfilling the prophecies like the one Peter quotes in acts 2 from Joel about Gods spirit poured out on all flesh , we know from peters revelations there and chapter three and four . how the spirit was dispersed by God to Mankind

it was and is still through the gospel and believing what we can’t see but God said the kingdom comes after we part the body in this lifetime

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises,

but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Jews couldn’t understand this about the kingdom it’s in the next place to come but also the spirit lives in the heart of believers making them a part of the next place.

For example: Christ said that "ye are the salt of the world." I think it's pretty obvious that believers are not salt. This is to be taken spiritually.

This is the principle in which I read the scripture, I take it literally until it becomes obvious it's not!

You can't just go through the scripture and say this and that is spiritual and not literal without a reason!!!

You seem to be avoiding my question. Is it possibly because you can't find a literal verse?

Revelation is a VISION. The angel interprets some of it--but all of it is symbols which SIGNIFY something else. 1000 year reign signifies his current reign since the heaven and earth are destroyed along with all the unbelievers after the judgment--it will be at the blink of an eye if we have to have a reference point in time--INSTANTANEOUS and then after that we will have a new heavens and new earth.

Please do provide the literal verse supporting your position.

Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ...
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.
Colossians 3:4
When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ...