The teaching of Paul and Christ is different.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

The greek word translated stopped here is phrase, it means to shut, to close. To stop….

God did say this, Your argument is with God not me

good luck trying to get bilk to see anything.


she has had the same things explained to her, by many, and rejects all of them, and has done so for years.

It is so difficult to listen to people telling about their personal opinions of God's holy law! They get it so mixed up and distorted. Either they want to use it as the heathens do or they want to say they must not use it to guide them in their walk with the Lord, or that God only gave it to tell them about what causes their death, no oher reason.

The Lord is so blessed, so Holy, so good and the law as God wants us to use it is part of that marvelous love we have from the Lord.

Yes, and the part it plays is as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Once it has done that, its work is complete, and abiding by it instead of walking by the Spirit is actually going backwards, contrary to God's will.

As Paul wrote to the Galatians, "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

I believe that Paul makes it clear that we do not obtain regeneration or renewing in the Holy Ghost through our acts of obedience but through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Acts of obedience will normally result from having received such regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

We are changed into a new creature in Christ by the grace of God; and because we have become new creatures, we are obedient children.

See II Peter 1 on becoming perfect.

Seeking to be perfect is part of sanctification.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2 Corinthians 13:9
For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 3:14
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
1 Thessalonians 3:10
Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 7:11
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

When we are brought to Christ, do you think it is right to complain and grouse about the teachings of Christ? Do you really think it is wrong to thank the Lord for His directions? I get scolded and put down as absolutely wrong to do this.

Again, you misrepresent.

You get scolded for your confusion of the old covenant and the new covenant. Nobody is "complaining and grousing" about the teachings of Christ, and nobody is saying it's wrong to thank the Lord.

I see the law as a guide to avoid living in the flesh.

I am sure we can agree on:


Romans 6:14-23

King James Version



14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8
King James Version
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I think you have put your finger on it. I feel that God created the old covenant and God did not say God was all wrong in doing that, I think God gave us a better way of speaking to us. That is opposed to saying that God cancelled, did away with the old covenant. I take my information from the Lord, not from this site that I love so and helps me in so many ways. But I do not believe you understand the two covenants from God's point of view and you do not think I understand from the Lord's point of view.

Blik, I think I get you loud and clear.

Obedience is paramount to a fruitful Christian life. It is also something that the flesh hates. The most powerful Christian is the one that does only what he sees Lord Jesus doing and says what Lord Jesus is saying. Such people are rare indeed.

The question is, of course, what is obedience? The sermon on the mount clarifies God's intent. The Law is a shadow (Hebrews 8:5, 10:1, Colossians 2:17). The Law brings death - 2 Corinthians 3:7, Lord Jesus came that we might have life (John 10:10).

Sin came into the the heart of man by disobedience (Romans 5:19). Some imagine that they will become righteous by obeying God's commandments. No, there was no way back for Adam. He was shut out of Eden and kept away from the tree of Life. So what can we do?

Fundamentally we need to receive Christ. When we do, we are born again. (John 1:12). Once we are born again, everything changes. We are no longer bound to the code inscribed on stone. That code kills. That is the letter of the law as Paul said to the Corinthians. Those who try to live according to the law will end up in failure and defeat. It is not the fault of the Law. The problem is with people. There is no inherent ability to keep the law in the human heart.

When I was suffering a serious heart problem, the ambulance took me to hospital. I was transferred to the care of the medical staff. The ambulance crew left and went to another emergency. In the same way, the Law's purpose is to bring us to Christ. Once we have come, the Law has done it's job and no longer applies (Galatians 3:24).

Obedience is no longer a matter of Law. When I was a young Christian, I wrestled with the first commandment. Love the Lord your God? I did not even love myself! How was I supposed to love God? Then I read that the love of God is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5) . I don't have to try to love God. It's built in. And so is everything that I need to please God. Lord Jesus lives in me to be my life in place of what I received from Adam. Obedience is now a matter of following the leading of the Lord Jesus. It's not according to a set of rules. It is according to the will of God as revealed in my inner man.

The last thing that the Lord Jesus did with the 12 was to introduce the New Covenant. Galatians chapter 3 is a clear exposition of the place of Law and grace under the New Covenant. Mere obedience to a set of rules is nowhere near satisfying to the heart of God.

Tell me, you legalists, what is better? To obey the sabbath rules or to help protect the lives of 250 people? I could not do both. Lord Jesus made it clear that the sabbath was made for man and that He made the rules about the sabbath!

The Lord Jesus also introduced the New Covenant. It's new because it is new. The old is the shadow. If you want to live in the shadows, fine. You need to read the whole of the New Testament. The law is obsolete.

Galatians 3:

19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, for only one party; but God is one.

21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe.

23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Hebrews 8:
12For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.” 13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

You’re welcome to your opinion. I’ll stick with what Scripture says.

[QUOTE="Gideon300, post: 4707017, member: 306029".
The question is, of course, what is obedience?[/QUOTE] The answer to this in terms of what scripture tells us, not what the world tells us, is key. The world tells us to obey you must perfectly do whatever the Lord says. Scripture tells us differently, it tells us obedience is repentance.

If we say we obey perfectly, we lie. Paul tells us we do what we do not want to do. Christ tells us to repent of sin.

So will I. God is eternal and never changes, scripture says.

Not according to scrippture. Psalm 19-9 Reverence for the LORD is pure, lasting forever. The laws of the LORD are true; each one is fair.

You are getting the law mixed up with the fleshly type commands given as schoolmasters to guide people to law obedience. Now we are given the law in our hearts, directly not through the flesh. Why should I go back to learning God's ways that way now we are in the new covenant and learn of God's ways heart to heart?

The whole reason the law was introduced in the first place was because the Hebrew people rejected Gods Grace.


Same thing happens with people who continue to place themselves under the law. They have rejected Gods Grace.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Examples of people who are trying to be justified by the law (even when claiming not to be)

"It shows our obedience to God"
"It is our guide for moral living"
"Sacrifice and Ceremony were done away but we are still under the 10 commandments"
"The "moral" law is still a law for Christians"


Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

You are quick to quote Paul in Galatians, not understanding what he is saying. But you don't want to quote Paul in Rom. 3:31,

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

The Law is established (God forbid I should say such a thing) by the fact that it represented and symbolized Christ. He fulfilled the Law and the Law found its end in Christ. This establishes the Law.

So according to you Paul is a legalist by saying the Law is not made void through faith!

You don't understand the Law/Christ relationship to the believer and you don't want to understand it.

What you want to do, Grandpa, is condemn everyone that doesn't see the Law in your narrow view!