If The Kingdom isn't here yet then what is JESUS CHRIST a King of?

Why do you think most of the beasts rise out of the sea? JESUS started fishing men out of the beast system and making them citizens of His Kingdom.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isaiah 9:1-3

1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

Matthew 4:16-19

The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

i think the one beast that came out of the land was a beast from The Church. it had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon.

The beast comes to persecute the Church so he doesn't come from the Church.

Are you familiar with the monsters we called "pope" before the Reformation?

We are now discussing how many Jews will survive the Trib. period....you said all. Let's clear this up because it dovetails into the other points.
If Jews (all) are saved why does God have to save those 144000?

If you want to speak of the Catholic church then say that. Don't say the beast comes from the Church because that is misleading.

Zechariah tells us that 1/3 of the Jews will survive the tribulation. I didn't know that is what you were speaking of. I must have missed some conversation somewhere. Of course, I haven't read the previous conversations you have had on this.

a beast either comes out of beast system ...the sea of the dead ...or land, Religion involving CHRIST. Read the post at the top of this page. JESUS Pulls us out of sea onto land.

The great tribulation Jesus spoke about was tribulation against Christians. It has nothing to do with Jews except that Christians will be beaten in Jewish synagogues.

Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

"for my sake" means the reason they are delivered to councils and beaten in Jewish synagogues is because they are Christians! This is not about Jewish persecution or punishment at all.

The main purpose of the great tribulation is to bring Israel to Christ!

When Christ comes at the Second Coming to deliver Israel from the anti-christ, with 2/3rds of Israel already dead, the prophecy of Paul is fulfilled, "all of Israel shall be saved."

And what scripture says that?

Doesn't sound like "all" Israel is saved from your wording. More like, "1/3 of Israel shall be saved."

None of is found regarding the tribulation though. Jews aren't ones being saved nor are ones being killed.

"All of Israel who are left alive will be saved."

Zech. 13:8-9

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Then he tells how this will happen in 14:1-3

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

When the Lord goes forth to fight, this is the Second Coming to save the rest of Israel from the antichrist.

That's isn't the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is found in the gospels and in parts of Revelation. We are told in those places the Great Tribulation is a war on Christians with Christians being beaten in Jewish synagogues.

The "Lord" that Israel shall say is their God, is Jesus Christ the One they have rejected for almost 2000 years now.

You have been told wrong, my friend!

I was told that by scripture so no I wasn't told wrong.

Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

The olivet discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


The olivet discourse (Mark):

Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

He is talking to his Christian disciples.

Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This is the false Christ that Christians are warned about.

Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

"for my sake" means the reason they are delivered to councils and beaten in Jewish synagogues is because they are Christians! This is not about Jewish persecution or punishment at all.

Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

That's the Christian gospel of Christ not a Jewish gospel.


Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

"you" here is still the same people he is talking about, Christians.

Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Here it is again. Those that carry the name of Christ, Christians, will be the ones persecuted.


Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The elect here are the same people in the entire OD, Christians!


Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Again Christians are being warned about the false Christ.


Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Same Christian elect here as well.

Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And here is the second coming of the Christian Messiah and the rapturing/gathering.


Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Never once does the subject change from Christian persecution to anything about the Jews being targeted for persecution or punishment. The OD is fully and completely about Christian persecution and AD70 was only about the Jews rebelling against the Roman's and being defeated.


In the GT Christians will be beaten in Jewish synagogues simply because Christians are the ones being persecuted not the Jews.


AD 70 subject?? Hardly! None of it is about AD 70 and the Roman's punishing the Jews....literally nothing.




Let's see what Revelation says about persecution in the great tribulation:


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Christians are Satan's target!


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints are Christians not Jews. The tribulation is war on Christianity.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The witness of Jesus means they are Christians. The ones persecuted are Christians!

The whole world will suffer during the tribulation, but no one suffers at the scale of Israel. That is what it takes for God's chosen to come to Christ. He loves them that much! Some see it as hatred from God, I see it as love beyond man's comprehension.

Not according to scripture. Satan's great war is against Christians, as I have already proven.

The true Church, the true believers, will not go through the tribulation.

Paul said it and Jesus said it! I've already shown both scriptures.