Jesus Came To Fulfill Not To Destroy

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Oblio

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#641
Happy rest day, happy rest day to you
It's the best day, it's a blessed day all the way through
It's a feast day made by Yahweh for me and you...it's true
Happy rest day, happy rest day to you tc

Exodus 31:17
"It is a sign between Me and the Israelites forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed."
 
Jocund

Jocund

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BroTan said:
Paul says in Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. In other words if there is no law there is no sin. Sin is not imputed or no blame can be accredited to any person when there is no law. Now, let’s see what Sin is according to the Bible in I John 3:4 it states, "whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." So if the law was nailed to the cross that would mean its okay to use the Lords name in vain, put other gods before HIM, make graven images and bow before them, pollute the Sabbath day, steal, commit murder, commit adultery and bear false witness. If all these things are okay to commit, then we might as well throw the Bible out the back door and do what ever feels good to us. Today you will find out what law was nailed to the cross. We will see that Paul was in fact a law keeper and how he preached out of the Law and the Prophets.

Now let's begin by taking a look at both of the laws and how they worked together. We will see there were two laws given to Moses, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law. Watch how they worked together.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).

And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. (Leviticus 4:27-30)

When the common people sinned through ignorance and it came to their knowledge, what did they have to do? They brought an offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for their sin which they had committed, then the priest would offer the animal to the Lord. Think about this for a moment. If an animal was killed for a person that committed sin, what will happen to us today if we a trespass against the Lord?

Let's go into Paul's writings and take another look at both of these laws. We will go into the Book of Galatians chapter 3. This is one of the chapters that the majority of Christian preachers use to do away with the Lord's commandments. Now, let's read carefully!

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)

Take heed to what Paul's says above, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions." What is transgression? Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4) Transgression is braking of the commandments. What law was added because of the braking of the law? The sacrificial law! Paul is simply asking these Gentiles, "why perform the sacrificial law? It was added because of sin until the seed should come.
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"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:21 KJV

Righteousness is still required. I don't see how anyone would interpret that the law being nailed to the cross as a blank cheque to ignore the law of Christ. Scripture can sometimes appear confusing when it speaks of law because law can mean different things. I don't see why anyone would attempt to dissect OT law into "moral" law and "sacrificial" law when it is said that breaking any one point in the OT law was the break the whole law (it doesn't differentiate).

The concept of Christ fulfilling the law also satisfies sacrificial laws as Christ is the blood sacrifice to atone for sin. The interpretation of the law of Christ covering as an equivalent of the OT law requirements covers the whole law. The interpretation that only some of the OT law applies does not cover the whole law. To believe only some of the OT law applies is cherry-picking.

The concept at the heart of the law of Christ fulfilling the law is that there is in essence an unseen perfect law of righteousness for which different covenants and provisions and flawed language attempt to address and align believers into. The OT law would attempt to bring people into alignment, but ultimately, only through Christ and spiritual transformation can this law of righteousness be attained (not by OT law). This covenant of Christ is written on the hearts and minds. The New Testament points to this covenant, the only covenant, that leads to righteousness. "A change in priest = a change in law"

We will see that Paul was in fact a law keeper
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When he was Saul, this was the case. This was not the case when he became Paul. And it's frustrating to see people make claims about the New Testament that clearly show that they need to spend more time reading through the New Testament.

"Among those without law, I was without law (but not without God's law as I did keep the law of Christ)"

polluting of the Sabbath
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I'm sure the Pharisees thought Jesus was polluting the Sabbath too.
 
Jocund

Jocund

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justbyfaith said:
I believe that Matthew 5:17-20 is in reference to the moral aspects of the law; which apply primarily to the moral obedience that is required by the law; and not necessarily to aspects of the civil law which primarily applies to punishments meted out by the government as concerning violations of such a morality as is laid out by the moral law.

The moral law applies to personal obedience whereas the civil law applies to the role of government in meting out punishments for disobedience.

I do not believe that our personal obedience requires that we personally take action as concerning punishing those who disregard the moral laws of holy scripture; that is something that is relegated to our understanding of the civil law and it would only be obedience for those who are in government to carry out what is written in the civil law as concerning the government of Israel by those who govern Israel.

The ten commandments, for example, do not lay out punishments for those who violate the commandments but they are given as a moral law; and these moral laws apply to our personal obedience apart from any punishments that might be meted out as the result of the civil law coming into practice.
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Even in the Torah we see clauses that create provisions for civil law that use the Levites as the "supreme court" in a sense. But if the other OT commandments were only transitory civil laws, why not just leave it to the Levites? Many OT commandments are structured as moral laws.

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear" - Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV

The moral instruction is "purge evil from your midst" with a procedural requirement / instruction for the men of the city to stone the individual to death. This similar to "Keep the Sabbath holy" with the procedural requirement to not labour, etc.

It becomes a bit of a minefield at that point to try to dissect which parts of OT law should be categorized as "moral law" that is still applicable and "transitory civic law" or procedure which somehow does not still apply. If the procedure for "purging evil amongst you" has changed, it could surely also be the case then that the procedure associated with the Sabbath could have changed as well. Instead of not labouring, perhaps just noting the fact it is Saturday is sufficient for remembering and honouring the Sabbath. It would certainly be an element of that interpretation model up for discussion.

If we're on the same page so far, I think the model you present has merit from what I can sense of it so far, but the way I see these procedures is that they are necessarily led by the priesthood of the day. In the time of the books of the law, the Levitical order was the lead priesthood and would have created provisions. In the New Testament, Christ became the head priest of the faith and therefore these procedural "civic" aspects for how to satisfy the law would be the provisions set out by the New Testament. We would still come to the same conclusion that the NT is the true source of moral guidance and the specific nature of how it addresses those OT concepts is key. And you make a great point with governments offering specific civic guidance as part of the NT discusses that governments are installed on God's behalf. The NT has an interesting array of checks and balances that goes as large as governments in play and as close and personal as one's conscience.

If I missed the mark, I think in the end I still don't have a clear concept of the dividing line between "moral law" vs "nonmoral law" in the OT but based on the description of what would count in that interpretation, it seems like it would be way more than just the 10 Mosaic commandments.
 
O

Oblio

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Until one understands what the inner crucifixion is, I don't know what to say.
 
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Oblio

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#645
When I talk about celebrating the sabbath, I'm not saying you can only walk a certain distance, or if someone exerts themselves a bit too much, they should be stoned to death. We are not under the Mosaic law. The sabbath was around way before Moses was born.
Yes, the sabbath was in the written law, but I'm not talking about the written law. You're not saved or unsaved by observing the sabbath. The sabbath is a gift from God for our benefit. Oy vey!
 
Jocund

Jocund

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Oblio said:
When I talk about celebrating the sabbath, I'm not saying you can only walk a certain distance, or if someone exerts themselves a bit too much, they should be stoned to death. We are not under the Mosaic law. The sabbath was around way before Moses was born.
Yes, the sabbath was in the written law, but I'm not talking about the written law. You're not saved or unsaved by observing the sabbath. The sabbath is a gift from God for our benefit. Oy vey!
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I think most weekday workers look forward to Saturdays. A gift indeed for many.
 
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justbyfaith

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Concerning everything that has been said since last I posted in this thread:

We are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6) as concerning condemnation; and therefore there would be no condemnation if we violate certain laws because it is as if the law is not there, as concerning condemnation.

However, this applies only to those who are born again; and those who are born again have the love of the Lord shed abroad in out hearts (Romans 5:5) so that we would not be disobedient to the commandments of Jesus.

However, if we mess up or blow it, provision has been made in the blood of the Cross so that we are forgiven if we mess up or blow it.

Again, this is as concerning those whose inclination is to want to be obedient; those who are born again of the Holy Spirit.

As concerning whether or not we should abide by the Old Testament or the New;

I believe that the OT applies to those who think that they can be justified through law-keeping, works, or personal merits; as well as the moral tenets in the NT. For such, it is required of them that they be perfectly moral according to every law from conception into eternity if they are going to enter in to heaven that way (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

For those who are in Christ, we have been delivered from the law; even the letter of the requirements that are written down; and are set free to obey the spirit of what is written (Romans 7:6).

What this amounts to is that if we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

However, this is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed.

It is accomplished not through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; but rather as we deny the flesh and are obedient to the Spirit, our resulting behaviour is seen by the Lord as being righteous according to the law.

For there has been a change in the law when there was a change in the priesthood (Hebrews 7:12).

So now, it is no longer the Old Testament law that defines sin for the believer; but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus; or the law of faith; is what governs the believer so that he walks in the morality that God has placed on his heart and mind (Hebrews 8:8-10, 10:16).

It is laid out in the following scripture.

Gal 5:16, This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18, But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19, Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24, And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Above is the New Testament law as concerning behaviour.
 
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justbyfaith

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I would also say that the civil law is moral;

But that what I have referred to as moral law is as concerning what I would call personal obedience as I respond to the morality of things that apply to my personal obedience as one who is not a member of the government of Israel.
 
TMS

TMS

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Jocund said:
The differences in some of the interpretations seem to be focused mainly on which commandments were being talked about.
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Which commandments..... ???

It becomes clear with a bit of study.

Paul said not to make the law void, Jesus said to keep the law, James said to obey and John in Revelation said that the saved would keep the commandments... The commandments, law is important but there are places were we are told that it is all about faith and the law is nailed to the cross. Does the bible contradict itself? NO

The key is to understand which laws are being referred to.

Remember that a law was in place before sin, A law that revealed sin and what defined sin. No law = no sin.

When sin came into the picture God started to reveal the plan of salvation with ceremonies and laws that pointed to the salvation that Jesus would bring.

At the cross these laws (which were a teacher and a shadow) were removed because we have the real deal in Jesus.

Many of the sabbaths kept were part of the ceremonial laws that pointed to Jesus given after sin. The weekly Sabbath was established before sin.
 
G

gb9

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TMS said:
Which commandments..... ???

It becomes clear with a bit of study.

Paul said not to make the law void, Jesus said to keep the law, James said to obey and John in Revelation said that the saved would keep the commandments... The commandments, law is important but there are places were we are told that it is all about faith and the law is nailed to the cross. Does the bible contradict itself? NO

The key is to understand which laws are being referred to.

Remember that a law was in place before sin, A law that revealed sin and what defined sin. No law = no sin.

When sin came into the picture God started to reveal the plan of salvation with ceremonies and laws that pointed to the salvation that Jesus would bring.

At the cross these laws (which were a teacher and a shadow) were removed because we have the real deal in Jesus.

Many of the sabbaths kept were part of the ceremonial laws that pointed to Jesus given after sin. The weekly Sabbath was established before sin.
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Sabbath was never a command for gentiles.
 
O

Oblio

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Without the law of God, my inner crucifixion never would've begun.
I'm talking about the last or seventh day of the week. I don't insist on anyone doing anything, I just think it's a good idea.
I believe the law of sin and death was nailed to the cross.
 
TMS

TMS

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#652
gb9 said:
Sabbath was never a command for gentiles.
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The Sabbath was made holy before any nation was born.... We are grafted into the house of David, by Jesus we are all spiritual Jews.
 
TMS

TMS

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Oblio said:
Without the law of God, my inner crucifixion never would've begun.
I'm talking about the last or seventh day of the week. I don't insist on anyone doing anything, I just think it's a good idea.
I believe the law of sin and death was nailed to the cross.
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The law of types and symbols was nailed to the cross. The penalty of breaking the law was paid at the cross.. but does that mean you can steal and lie and murder freely today.
 
B

BroTan

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Jocund said:
"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:21 KJV

Righteousness is still required. I don't see how anyone would interpret that the law being nailed to the cross as a blank cheque to ignore the law of Christ. Scripture can sometimes appear confusing when it speaks of law because law can mean different things. I don't see why anyone would attempt to dissect OT law into "moral" law and "sacrificial" law when it is said that breaking any one point in the OT law was the break the whole law (it doesn't differentiate).

The concept of Christ fulfilling the law also satisfies sacrificial laws as Christ is the blood sacrifice to atone for sin. The interpretation of the law of Christ covering as an equivalent of the OT law requirements covers the whole law. The interpretation that only some of the OT law applies does not cover the whole law. To believe only some of the OT law applies is cherry-picking.

The concept at the heart of the law of Christ fulfilling the law is that there is in essence an unseen perfect law of righteousness for which different covenants and provisions and flawed language attempt to address and align believers into. The OT law would attempt to bring people into alignment, but ultimately, only through Christ and spiritual transformation can this law of righteousness be attained (not by OT law). This covenant of Christ is written on the hearts and minds. The New Testament points to this covenant, the only covenant, that leads to righteousness. "A change in priest = a change in law"



When he was Saul, this was the case. This was not the case when he became Paul. And it's frustrating to see people make claims about the New Testament that clearly show that they need to spend more time reading through the New Testament.

"Among those without law, I was without law (but not without God's law as I did keep the law of Christ)"



I'm sure the Pharisees thought Jesus was polluting the Sabbath too.
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When you read about the law having a shadow of good things to come, and the law that was our school master to bring us unto Christ, it was not referring to God’s holy commandments but the animal sacrifice law.

Daniel the prophet foretold the doing away of this law. (Dan 9:26-27) And after threescore and two weeks shall Mes-si’-ah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Now we know that Jesus is the Mes-si’-ah, and cut off means to be killed, and Jesus didn’t die for himself, but for the sins of the people. (v.27) “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” When Jesus died on the cross he caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

This signified the end of the law of animal sacrifice, not Gods Royal law.

Paul explained this in; (Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments. (v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).
 
B

BroTan

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Grandpa said:
The Law WAS nailed to the cross.

But that doesn't mean its ok to use the Lords Name in vain or worship idols. That is your mistake in understanding.

What it means is that we are DEAD to the Law when we come to Christ so that we may Live unto God. And NO LONGER be slaves to our own understanding of what we IMAGINE the Law says.


Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

Why serve the 10 commandments??? It was added because of the rejection of the Grace of God - till the seed should come to whom the promise was made. (The Lord Jesus Christ)

It was ALL OF THE LAW that was added. Sacrifice, 10 commandments, dietary, Levitical. ALL.


Whatsoever is not of FAITH is sin.



Paul isn't talking about individual facets of the Law. Paul is talking about ALL of the Law.

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


If Paul was only talking about some "law of sacrifice" he would have spelled it out. He would have said the ACTUAL WORDS "law of sacrifice".

He would have said 'its ok to keep working at the ministration of death as long as you stop sacrificing the poor animals'.
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Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

In (1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 
TMS

TMS

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#656
BroTan said:
When you read about the law having a shadow of good things to come, and the law that was our school master to bring us unto Christ, it was not referring to God’s holy commandments but the animal sacrifice law.
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Agree
 
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Oblio

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#657
God's law is eternal and unchanging.
 
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BroTan

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Let's go to the Book of I Timothy chapter one and see if Paul kills the Lords commandments. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (I Timothy 1:5)

What does he mean the end of the commandment is charity? What is charity? It means love fore mankind correct? Now take a look at these verses in the Book of Romans.

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)

Take heed to what Paul says, "love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (which is charity) is the fulfilling of the law. Paul says, "If you LOVE your neighbor you will not, commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness nor covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Once again Paul is quoting from the books Moses! As a matter of fact Paul was quoting the Lord God, remember the Lord gave the Laws to Moses.

Take a look. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (Exodus 20:13-17)

What do we see here? We see Paul is inline with the rest of the Bible. He is not trying to do away with the Lords commandments. It is the false prophets that do not read the entire book from Genesis to Revelation! They are trying to do away with the Lord's laws. Paul was well aware that the law was to be kept. This include the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week!
 
TMS

TMS

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#660
Oblio said:
God's law is eternal and unchanging.
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Yes for the royal law,
But the law that was added because of transgression or sin and the law that was a shadow of Christ, these laws were given until Christ came.
 
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