Reading The First Five Chapters Of Revelations Without Stopping

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Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#21
Jul 18, 2017
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#21
Friend said:
And there is no greater mystery for us to know!
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I am not sure exactly what you are trying to convey. The mystery of the seven stars and the seven lampstands (candlesticks) has already been revealed by Christ Himself. But it would be inaccurate to say that there is "no greater mystery". So what remains is to learn some lessons from the letters to the seven churches. If we take what is written in its plain literal sense, seven angels delivered the seven letters to those seven churches in what is presently Turkey. What is relevant for today is this: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. It is significant that even though the messages are from Christ, it is the Spirit who is speaking to the churches. Not just those churches but to all churches in all ages. Which means that the triune Godhead works in unison at all times.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#22
Jul 31, 2013
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#22
awelight said:
I wish to add to your point -

In the Old Testament economy - The seven points of light, upon the single lampstand, demonstrated the Glory and Illumination of God, to the Israelites, in it's completeness. They were God's chosen people and the Lord was with them. This spiritual light, was provided for them in the midst of the meeting place (Tabernacle). The only place where God had placed His Name, until the building of the Temple.

In the New Testament economy - God temporarily placed Israel in a state of blindness and the seven points of spiritual illumination (completeness), were removed from them and were broken down into seven individual lampstands (completeness), of the Assembly age. While no one single assembly represents the "complete" revelation, as it did in the Tabernacle/Temple, the seven individual assemblies do. Each one being given spiritual light as God sees fit.

It would be erroneous therefore, to say that each one of the assemblies, seen in Rev. 1-3, are the assembly condition in various ages. This view destroys the completeness of the seven lampstands. All seven of the lampstands are present at any given time in history. They are not piece-milled off, one by one throughout history. The modern day assembly can only have one but all seven are in the world. This is not to say there can only be seven true lampstands (assemblies) but that the "completeness" of the lampstands are in the world, thus the completeness of Christ's Revelation are being proclaimed in the world.

The lampstands themselves, represent the life giving presents of Christ, in the assemblies. Christ threatened to remove the lampstand from Ephesus (Rev.2:5). If the lampstand is removed, from an assembly, this not only means that this assembly is no longer a spiritual light to others but also means, the halls of that assembly have been darkened. The Lord is no longer in that assembly - it's spiritual life is dead. Many so-called churches, today, suffer from this condition.
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i agree - we can find representations of all 7 of these at any given time, and we can even find all 7 among a given single congregation! when John wrote these things, there were literal 'churches' in each of the cities mentioned that were being specifically spoken to through the scripturey, and i have no doubt that what Christ said of them here was absolutely accurate for their congregations ans situations at that time.
but i do see also that there are times when one or more of these 'types' is risen to prominence.


JAPOV said:
To the Church in Laodicea
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

15“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Can we at least agree that this accurately describes our current age?
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i agree that at our current time, drawing near to the end of the age of the Gentiles, this is the predominate state of the American 'church'

but i thought dispensationalists did not like to recognize allegory in scripture? ((hehe))

:)
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#23
Jul 31, 2013
36,677
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#23
Friend said:
And there is no greater mystery for us to know!
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no greater? God doesn't call that a 'great' mystery - however,

without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory!
(1 Timothy 3:16) ​
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#25
#25
posthuman said:
i agree - we can find representations of all 7 of these at any given time, and we can even find all 7 among a given single congregation! when John wrote these things, there were literal 'churches' in each of the cities mentioned that were being specifically spoken to through the scripturey, and i have no doubt that what Christ said of them here was absolutely accurate for their congregations ans situations at that time.
but i do see also that there are times when one or more of these 'types' is risen to prominence.




i agree that at our current time, drawing near to the end of the age of the Gentiles, this is the predominate state of the American 'church'

but i thought dispensationalists did not like to recognize allegory in scripture? ((hehe))

:)
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"dispensationalists...?" Don't even know what that means... Sounds Roman...
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#31
Jul 18, 2017
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#31
posthuman said:
but i thought dispensationalists did not like to recognize allegory in scripture? ((hehe))
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Those churches are not regarded as allegorical but as TYPES of the church ages.:LOL:
So what do we have in typology:
Ephesus -- 30 AD to 100 AD
Smyrna -- 100 AD to 300 AD
Pergamum -- 300 AD to 600 AD
Thyatira -- 600 AD to 1500 AD
Sardis -- 1500 AD to 1750 AD
Philadelphia -- 1750 AD to 1900 AD
Laodicea -- 1900 AD to Present
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#32
#32
2ndTimothyGroup said:
This is a great response . . . and it actually makes sense as in . . . the wise thing to do.
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No thanks... I can easily recognize common sense when I read the Bible for myself. I don't need another irrelevant 50cent word to argue about...
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#33
Feb 20, 2021
5,561
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#33
JAPOV said:
No thanks... I can easily recognize common sense when I read the Bible for myself. I don't need another irrelevant 50cent word to argue about...
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Fair enough. I find it odd, then, that you would suggest that we accept materials from Hal Lindsey.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#34
#34
Just 200yrs ago, it was quite common for the vast majority of people to be illiterate...
Proper education certainly has made a clear difference.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#35
Jul 31, 2013
36,677
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#35
JAPOV said:
Just 200yrs ago, it was quite common for the vast majority of people to be illiterate...
Proper education certainly has made a clear difference.
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We don't have the excuse they had
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#36
Jul 31, 2013
36,677
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#36
Charlie24 said:
Me thinks you like to argue, lol! If dispensationalism is not agreeing with you just say so!

Why does it not agree with you?
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it's nothing, bro. only i enjoy irony, and i don't mind so much if i am sometimes the only one laughing :)
 
R

Rondonmon

Senior Member
#37
May 13, 2016
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#37
Lafftur said:
Every time you see “7” it is the Word and Spirit working together to accomplish the Father’s Will.

7 = the Work of the Holy Spirit completing and finishing what the Word of God sent It to do….God’s Word does not return void, It accomplishes what It was sent to do.

The Word of God never works alone, It is always accompanied with the Holy Spirit.

The Word is God’s Authority; and
The Holy Spirit is God’s Power.
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7 & 10 = Completion, and 7 always trumps 10 if both are in the same verse. 12 = Fulness, 3 = the Triune God, 6 = Man, 8 = New Beginnings.

So, the 7 eyes and 7 spirits simply means God sees all and is everywhere. Lets look at this supposed Mystery he's pointing to, there is a continuum thread in these chapters, but I think he misses its meaning. Mystery or the Greek word musterion means Secret by God's silence(to shut the mouth), and in Rev. 1, Jesus tells us the "Secret", he says the 7 candlesticks represent the 7 Churches, mystery solved, because the secret was revealed.

So, just as God used 7 eyes and 7 spirits, He is using the 7 Churches here as we turn the page to Rev. 2 & 3 as a representation unto all the churches throughout all the Church Age(2000 some odd years), and thus as we turn from Rev. 3 to Rev. 4:1 we see the symbolism of the Rapture in Rev. 4:1 which closes out the Church Age and transitions to the Church being seen in Heaven in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10.

So in summary, in Rev. 1 Jesus reveals the mystery of the Church Age, in Rev. 2 and 3 Jesus gives us the pluses and minuses to the SEVEN TYPES of churches throughout the complete church age. We then see the Rapture of the Church/Body of Christ in Revelation 4:1, and they are in Heaven when Jesus is given the 7 Sealed scroll of Judgments in Rev. 5, meaning that God has the Judgments COMPLETELY tied down(Sealed) until the time of His choosing (when the 7th seal is opened). Then in Rev. 6 we see God starts opening the 7 Seals in Heaven, amidst the Church. So, all of these 7 simply represent COMPLETION in everything they are placed next to. Likewise, we see 10 magnified in the 10,000 x 10,000 hosts of heaven, which simply means the complete hosts of heaven..
 
F

Friend

Active member
#38
Dec 7, 2021
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#38
posthuman said:
no greater? God doesn't call that a 'great' mystery - however,

without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, ​
justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory!​
(1 Timothy 3:16) ​
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posthuman said:
no greater? God doesn't call that a 'great' mystery - however,

without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, ​
justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory!​
(1 Timothy 3:16) ​
Click to expand...
Hello Brother: And Paul states that we will be received up in the clouds too... I think the mystery of the Seven Lampstands is significant, in that Seven Lamp that are on earth (which are the churches) but thereafter wind up on the throne as seven eyes. Jesus said we are the light of the world. He also said as long as He was in the world that He was also. With no one found worthy anywhere in the universe, that leaves no other conclusion than that of the seven torch fires being us, even the Lord among His Brothers, having been taken off the earth when the voice like a trumpet sounded coming from heaven. But John (the observer) did not see the Lord nor the lamps of fire until after the reception of lightning and thunder; Comprehending Our Lord with His/seven Spirits descending from the throne room to receive us in the Clouds. Retuning and appearing as seven torches of fire; with the next step taking our seat on the throne; Just as he Promised to those who over come... So brother when I first realized what all this meant; I was amazed and that was almost five years ago, and I am still just as amazed to this very day...

Rev 3:21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, (Just as) I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.​
 
P

Pablo2021

Member
#39
Dec 8, 2021
76
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#39
posthuman said:
no greater? God doesn't call that a 'great' mystery - however,

without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, ​
justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory!​
(1 Timothy 3:16) ​
Click to expand...
Hello, brother: Since I have read some comments on the part of Friend's regarding Chapters 1-5 in Revelation, I've come to the realization it is also part of the great mystery of godliness itself; and, obviously, for our blessing.

For instance, part of 1Tim 3:16 says God in the flesh (our Lord and Savior) was received up in glory, just as in some other part it says we've been seated in the heavenlies with Christ; and Revelations, in showing the Seven lamps (Seven churches) burning, which are the Seven Spirits of God. And this is the realization: that once we, the Church(es), are taken up and seen before the throne (that's in Rev 4:1-5). And, then, the vision of the Lamb... having seven horns and seven eyes which (just as the lamps) are the seven Spirits of God, what we have in the end is a blessed vision of ourselves in the future: first, before the throne; then, as the body of or parts of the body of the Lamb Himself!!

That's why Friend and I and many more appreciate this greater mystery!!
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#40
Jul 18, 2017
24,485
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#40
JAPOV said:
Just 200yrs ago, it was quite common for the vast majority of people to be illiterate...
Click to expand...
Actually the vast majority of people in America are deemed to be "functionally illiterate". Even college graduates are not really "educated" (indoctrinated would be more accurate). And now with Wokeism, it is "racist" to grade mathematics and demand correct answers! Chances are the coming generation will be even more illiterate than past generations. And Bible literacy is total missing in the public school system, as well as many private schools. But this is off topic.

Getting back to Revelation there are several reasons why this book is seriously misrepresented or misunderstood: (1) lack of emphasis on the whole Bible in many churches, (2) neglect of careful study by pastors and teachers, (3) misleading interpretations going all the way back to Origen and Augustine, who allegorized Scripture, (4) squeamishness on the part of pastors and teachers who do not wish to present the horrors of divine judgments to their audiences, or neglect to preach on Hell -the Lake of Fire.

Posthuman is correct in that the "Mystery of Godliness" (the life of Christ Himself) is called the "Great Mystery". BTW "God" has been expunged from all the modern translation in 1 Timothy 3:16, and replaced by "He" or "Who". This was uncalled for but suits the Unitarians just fine. However it was God Himself who was manifest in the flesh, and there are millions who still struggle with the deity of Christ and reject it. The Muslims and the Jews, as well as the cultists, refuse to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was and is God (the Son). And unless a person believes this, he or she will die in their sins.
 
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